Why Was Ben Having a Pro Bowl Caliber Season Last Year?

[Captain Lemming]

I think you're both a little right. Like the good captain points out, he was on an incredible pace with high TDs and low int %s. But like SOD was saying his YPA bottomed out and I do think the bad overall team performance meant he had to throw more and we were down at the end of some games and the league is a changing.

I asked the question because the answer feels a little confusing depending on how I look at Ben's performance. I still feel just as confused about the answer as I did before I asked the question. But thanks for sharing these perspectives.

Maybe we'll all learn a little more as we go into this season. Maybe Ben and Haley just need time together to figure out the secret sauce.

If by "Both" you mean me a Shawn....yes, we are both right.

Flippy your question was "why" was Ben having a great season.
SOD is not addressing that question, he is making a case that we are overselling how well Ben was playing.

Flippy look at the chart he posted. One season to the next, we arent goig back a decade.
I am not talking about how MUCH yards he threw for. That is meaningless.
A 32 TD to 8 int pace- That matters.

I want EFFECTIVE passing.
As I demonstated at length, the shorter passing LED to Ben's amzing 3rd down efficiency.
Even missing three games Ben STILL threw is most TDs since 07.
You think that is due to attempt?
Due to his missing games his pass attempt went DOWN and he STILL threw 26 TDs up from 21 in 2011.
Ben has bested the 26 TD passes last year only ONCE ever. Ben has had more attempts than this year many times.

The league is changing? Well passing records were broken by Brady and Brees in 2011 not in 2012.
Yet Ben got better BY FAR in 2013 especially before the injury.

[Oviedo]

If by "Both" you mean me a Shawn....yes, we are both right.

Flippy your question was "why" was Ben having a great season.
SOD is not addressing that question, he is making a case that we are overselling how well Ben was playing.

Flippy look at the chart he posted. One season to the next, we arent goig back a decade.
I am not talking about how MUCH yards he threw for. That is meaningless.
A 32 TD to 8 int pace- That matters.

I want EFFECTIVE passing.
As I demonstated at length, the shorter passing LED to Ben's amzing 3rd down efficiency.
Even missing three games Ben STILL threw is most TDs since 07.
You think that is due to attempt?
Due to his missing games his pass attempt went DOWN and he STILL threw 26 TDs up from 21 in 2011.
Ben has bested the 26 TD passes last year only ONCE ever. Ben has had more attempts than this year many times.

The league is changing? Well passing records were broken by Brady and Brees in 2011 not in 2012.
Yet Ben got better BY FAR in 2013 especially before the injury.

+1 Ben is better with the short passing than his fling it down the field insticts result in. The former is much better for the team because it keps the chains moving and wears down the opponents defense.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

If by "Both" you mean me a Shawn....yes, we are both right.

Flippy your question was "why" was Ben having a great season.
SOD is not addressing that question, he is making a case that we are overselling how well Ben was playing.

Flippy look at the chart he posted. One season to the next, we arent goig back a decade.
I am not talking about how MUCH yards he threw for. That is meaningless.
A 32 TD to 8 int pace- That matters.

I want EFFECTIVE passing.
As I demonstated at length, the shorter passing LED to Ben's amzing 3rd down efficiency.
Even missing three games Ben STILL threw is most TDs since 07.
You think that is due to attempt?
Due to his missing games his pass attempt went DOWN and he STILL threw 26 TDs up from 21 in 2011.
Ben has bested the 26 TD passes last year only ONCE ever. Ben has had more attempts than this year many times.

The league is changing? Well passing records were broken by Brady and Brees in 2011 not in 2012.
Yet Ben got better BY FAR in 2013 especially before the injury.

-1, on this Ovi, not +1...

You've managed to prove my point, without even trying.
1. That passing records have been brokein in the last 2-3 years, means comparing Ben's 2004 self with Ben's 2012 self isn't an accurate comparison - you've proven that times are a'changing
2. It's amusing to me that you say i'm not addressing the question. Basically, you're saying, "Sod's using selective stats... don't look at those... look at the ones *i* select"

Fact is, some of his stats were better. Some were not.

AGAIN... the chains WERE NOT moving as well. The team had significantly fewer 1st downs... somebody explain that to me... why wouldn't a lot of dink and dunks result in a bunch of first downs?

[Captain Lemming]

AGAIN... the chains WERE NOT moving as well. The team had significantly fewer 1st downs... somebody explain that to me... why wouldn't a lot of dink and dunks result in a bunch of first downs?

1. No running game. 3rd and 1 and running back gets stuffed. That stops the chains.
2. A three game stretch where ben did not play. Then Ben come back and played poorly duye to lingering injury.

The premise of this thread is why Ben "started" the season on fire.
When you include SEASON stats including stats that include Leftwich and Batch to make your case plus Bens last few games, which have nothing to do with his start, you are not addressing the point.

"I" addressed Bens play during the period specified.
You are ignoring it.

[Shawn]

No running game.
A three game stretch where ben did not play. Then Ben come back and played poorly duye to lingering injury.

The premise ogf this thread is that Ben "started" the season on fire.
When you include SEASON stats including stats that inclu
de Leftwich and Batch to make your case lpus Bens last few games, you are not addressing the point.

What I can't understand is why anyone would use stats where Ben wasn't playing or playing injured. It's just not honest. Not to mention, how does lacking a run game help the passing game?

[Captain Lemming]

What I can't understand is why anyone would use stats where Ben wasn't playing or playing injured. It's just not honest. Not to mention, how does lacking a run game help the passing game?

As I just said, "But if you need to include the run game and Batch to make a case that Haley made no difference, I understand.
It is the ONLY way to make your case. "

[SteelerOfDeVille]

What I can't understand is why anyone would use stats where Ben wasn't playing or playing injured. It's just not honest. Not to mention, how does lacking a run game help the passing game?

Ben plays injured ANNUALLY... Ben misses games ANNUALLY. comparing ONLY his healthy stats to PRIOR years when he DID play injured is dishonest... just sayin...

(fwiw, the only team stats included were first downs... if they were playing at an amazing clip, moving the chains, you'd think even with the injury pulling the numbers back, they would have AT LEAST been in the neighborhood... they weren't)

[feltdizz]

Ben plays injured ANNUALLY... Ben misses games ANNUALLY. comparing ONLY his healthy stats to PRIOR years when he DID play injured is dishonest... just sayin...

(fwiw, the only team stats included were first downs... if they were playing at an amazing clip, moving the chains, you'd think even with the injury pulling the numbers back, they would have AT LEAST been in the neighborhood... they weren't)

I agree.. Ben rarely plays healthy. I'm still waiting for an answer about the number of first downs being low the first 8 games.

I think the lack of a running game was also a reason. Some people say a bad running game would make it harder for him.... yet those same people say the it's a passing league and the running game isn't that important.

[Captain Lemming]

I agree.. Ben rarely plays healthy. I'm still waiting for an answer about the number of first downs being low the first 8 games.

I think the lack of a running game was also a reason. Some people say a bad running game would make it harder for him.... yet those same people say the it's a passing league and the running game isn't that important.

You answered your own question. If you have the worst run game in a generation that hurts your overall ability to convert 1st downs.

It is EASY to quantify the degree that number is indicative of Ben's play.

How effective was BEN at converting 3rd downs? We know he was great, heck you started that conversation. That being the case, any discussion of total first downs obscures the point.

For example I just looked up 2 games where we had but ONE rushing 1st down. So you see a modest total first down number but it was ALL Ben.

[Shawn]

Ben plays injured ANNUALLY... Ben misses games ANNUALLY. comparing ONLY his healthy stats to PRIOR years when he DID play injured is dishonest... just sayin...

(fwiw, the only team stats included were first downs... if they were playing at an amazing clip, moving the chains, you'd think even with the injury pulling the numbers back, they would have AT LEAST been in the neighborhood... they weren't)

I think looking at stats where Ben is clearly not himself physically is not the best gauge to analyze anything let alone an OC. I think a better indicator is looking at a healthy Ben to make assessments. I suppose we can agree to disagree.