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Thread: I don't want this to get lost in the loss

  1. #11
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    A beast of a player. The effort from him last night was inspiring to say the least.

  2. #12
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    He is in his 10th or 11th year and is getting better with each passing season, it’s truly remarkable, he should be considered for the hall of fame upon retirement but I don’t know, I think his name will be lost in the shuffle.

  3. #13
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    two irreplaceable components on that D...TJ & Cam Heyward. It's not that I don't think Haden/Minkah/Cam Sutton aren't good but if one goes down we can get by without them for a game (not 2 of the 3 mind you).

    But we saw what happened in the 3 game losing streak without TJ. ( I think we may have lost 3 of 4 games without him - though I would say he wasn't 100% at Greenbay).

    And frankly I shudder to think how close this D is to falling apart on the Defensive line. It is really down to one man and if he misses any time whatsoever...I can't see the Steelers winning another game without Cam Heyward in the lineup.

    A question on this topic...I believe someone mentioned how bad the depth is on this team. I think it's readily apparent how thin it is. I don't see the same gap in some other teams (sure the level of play drops off...but this feels like a grand canyon of talent level dropoff).

    Can you share some opinions as to why? (Besides the Tomlin sucks stuff - If you type misses on talent evaluation...that's great but if you are just going to sound off on Tomlin...obviously you can do so but you probably have done it a billion times already).

    Some heavy loaded cap/dead money?
    Misses on talent level in depth?
    Bargain basement shopping finally failed collectively? (sort of a miss on talent level but there is sense of arrogance by our brain trust that they can always find a diamond in the rough, perhaps that ego led to a collective miss)
    It's really just a perception issue? (I am too close and really other teams have the same problem)
    Something else?

    Thanks,
    Brothervad

  4. #14
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    If we were winning Super Bowls, like the Steelers of the 70s, Cam would be a lock for the HOF.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTP53609 View Post
    He is in his 10th or 11th year and is getting better with each passing season, it’s truly remarkable, he should be considered for the hall of fame upon retirement but I don’t know, I think his name will be lost in the shuffle.
    He's got a chance for the HoF IMO...especially if he gets a probowl and all-pro this year.

    He's got 4 probowls and 2 all-pros. All since he was reclassified as a DT midway through his career.

    Might depend on how well the case gets made re: DE / DT.

    But a 3rd all pro this year would really help his cause IMO.

    Doesn't help that he doesn't have sexy big counting stats like sacks (62.5 over 10.5 years). I wonder how many DTs get in vs. glamor positions (edge, CB, QB, WR)....nevermind: Here are the numbers by position (https://www.profootballhof.com/heroe...ame/positions/)

    26 pure QBs (+ 24 RB/QBs from way back).
    29 WRs

    38 DL (13 of which were classified at DTs...but some were unclassified like Sapp who was a DT). John Randle was also unclassified. He's listed as both a DT and DE on PFR...Heyward is also listed as both.

    I didn't look through all the modern DL, but:
    - Sapp has 7 probowls and 4 all pros...96.5 sacks in 13 years.
    - Randle has 7 probowls and 6 all pros...137.5 sacks in 14 years

    Maybe Heyward can get to 4 all-pros, but 6 is almost certainly out of reach. Might be hard to get to 7 probowls too.

    Seems unlikely that he'll get to Sapp's sack numbers. Certainly not Randle's.

    Not sure that those guys are the best comps, just the two guys I randomly looked at from the list.

    Again, I think it will depend on how the room looks at the transition from DE to DT. Peter King will certainly vote against.

    I think that Cam will have a better shot than Ward (4 probowls, 0 all pros). But probably still has enough to vote against him (lack of PBs and APs for the 1st half of his career) that I think the selection committee will go with other guys...unless someone makes a very strong case for Cam.
    Last edited by Northern_Blitz; 11-22-2021 at 01:45 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    He's got a chance for the HoF IMO...especially if he gets a probowl and all-pro this year.

    He's got 4 probowls and 2 all-pros. All since he was reclassified as a DT midway through his career.

    Might depend on how well the case gets made re: DE / DT.

    But a 3rd all pro this year would really help his cause IMO.

    Doesn't help that he doesn't have sexy big counting stats like sacks (62.5 over 10.5 years). I wonder how many DTs get in vs. glamor positions (edge, CB, QB, WR)....nevermind: Here are the numbers by position (https://www.profootballhof.com/heroe...ame/positions/)

    26 pure QBs (+ 24 RB/QBs from way back).
    29 WRs

    38 DL (13 of which were classified at DTs...but some were unclassified like Sapp who was a DT). John Randle was also unclassified. He's listed as both a DT and DE on PFR...Heyward is also listed as both.

    I didn't look through all the modern DL, but:
    - Sapp has 7 probowls and 4 all pros...96.5 sacks in 13 years.
    - Randle has 7 probowls and 6 all pros...137.5 sacks in 14 years

    Maybe Heyward can get to 4 all-pros, but 6 is almost certainly out of reach. Might be hard to get to 7 probowls too.

    Seems unlikely that he'll get to Sapp's sack numbers. Certainly not Randle's.

    Not sure that those guys are the best comps, just the two guys I randomly looked at from the list.

    Again, I think it will depend on how the room looks at the transition from DE to DT. Peter King will certainly vote against.

    I think that Cam will have a better shot than Ward (4 probowls, 0 all pros). But probably still has enough to vote against him (lack of PBs and APs for the 1st half of his career) that I think the selection committee will go with other guys...unless someone makes a very strong case for Cam.
    Weren't Sapp and Randle both 4-3 interior linemen as opposed to a 3-4 DE? I think that makes a difference in responsibilities for the defense. A 3-4 relies on the OLBs to apply the pressure and get the glory while the defensive linemen chew up blocks, take on double teams (see Aaron Smith for comparison, one of the best 3-4 DEs ever, hardly any stats), stuff the run, etc. They do all the dirty work and then you have a guy like Cam who does the dirty work but still gets significant stats. I don't know if it will be enough to get him into the HOF but it sure would be nice if does.

    Pappy


    The referee said that you hit Brian Sipe too hard. Did you hit him too hard?
    I hit him as hard as I could - Jack Lambert

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    It is like young Joe Greene. Playing your heart out, but just not having supporting talent. That dude deserved to win.
    And giving a little extra to the opponents!


  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    Weren't Sapp and Randle both 4-3 interior linemen as opposed to a 3-4 DE? I think that makes a difference in responsibilities for the defense. A 3-4 relies on the OLBs to apply the pressure and get the glory while the defensive linemen chew up blocks, take on double teams (see Aaron Smith for comparison, one of the best 3-4 DEs ever, hardly any stats), stuff the run, etc. They do all the dirty work and then you have a guy like Cam who does the dirty work but still gets significant stats. I don't know if it will be enough to get him into the HOF but it sure would be nice if does.

    Pappy
    I don't think the 3-4/4-3 stuff really matters anymore. Nickel is effectively the base set for all teams now and with the reclassification of the 4-3 DEs/3-4 OLBs as EDGEs there's a lot of gray area. You hear about positionless basketball in the NBA and you're seeing shades of it across the fronts of a lot of NFL defenses as well.

    Also depends on scheme, even back in the day. Bruce Smith got a few sacks one gapping in those old Buffalo 3-4 defenses. JJ Watt was in a supposed 3-4 as well.

    I ask because I don't know, were Noll's 3-4 defenses in the 80s two gapping or is that something that came along with Cowher?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    Weren't Sapp and Randle both 4-3 interior linemen as opposed to a 3-4 DE? I think that makes a difference in responsibilities for the defense. A 3-4 relies on the OLBs to apply the pressure and get the glory while the defensive linemen chew up blocks, take on double teams (see Aaron Smith for comparison, one of the best 3-4 DEs ever, hardly any stats), stuff the run, etc. They do all the dirty work and then you have a guy like Cam who does the dirty work but still gets significant stats. I don't know if it will be enough to get him into the HOF but it sure would be nice if does.

    Pappy
    I don't disagree with you.

    I think Hampton was a super-important part of our defense for a long time. And I think Heyward is better than Hampton. But there's no way Hampton gets any consideration for the hall because he doesn't have the counting stats.

    Although they also play different positions and Big Snack's role was even less glamorous than Cam's. I'm sure some voters will look at Cam's reclassification to DT and think it's disingenuous since he's still an end in our system.

    I guess I just don't have a super-high opinion of voters for the Hall and their knowledge of the game. See: King, Peter.
    Last edited by Northern_Blitz; 11-22-2021 at 06:10 PM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    I don't disagree with you.

    I think Hampton was a super-important part of our defense for a long time. And I think Heyward is better than Hampton (although they also play different positions and Big Snack's role was even less glamorous than Cam's)

    But there's no way Hampton gets any consideration for the hall because he doesn't have the counting stats.

    I guess I just don't have a super-high opinion of voters for the Hall and their knowledge of the game. See: King, Peter.
    Wilfork will be an interesting case. Him and Hampton may be the last of the true 0-tech NTs for some time (arguably Ngata though he kind of played everywhere from 0 tech to 5 tech). Hampton keeps popping up on the HOF finalist lists but yeah his chances are super low.

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