National Old Guy Voting Day

[flippy]

I truly respect your logical and articulate approach to these discussions.

Just a couple points:

1. I don't know where you think the tax cuts only benefitted the rich. I'm far from rich and my taxes noticeably went down. Pretty much the same with everyone I know
2. I don't care if corporations pay taxes because i'm more interested in them providing jobs than paying taxes. I can tell you that with the tax rates that existed before the cuts, companies in the US got a better financial deal moving production (good paying jobs) to Mexico or Asia. US corporations paying the highest tax rates in the world is counterproductive to keeping jobs in the US. Corporate contribution to society is employing people not pumping money into an unaccountable bureauracy.
3. Look at the collapse of the Greek economy. They introduced the same social agenda that the Dums are now proposing and then it soon became that 60% of the people were getting money from the Gov't. That meant 40% were carrying load. Businesses left the country. People who could moved their money out of the country and eventually many of those "producers" left for greener pastures. You can't punish achievers in your society or you remove the motivation to achieve. Look at venezuela. I have friends in Poland who describe how it was and how it is now. The difference are startling.

My view is that the Gov't owes people the freedom and the tools to achieve not the achievement itself. I want an American Gov't that works for America and its people...not multi-national organizations, not international political bodies. Any treaty or agreement that hurts American no matter the altruistic motivation is bad and a Gov't that agrees to it is betraying the American people.

Good discussion.

1. The individual tax cuts are thru 2025 and expire. But the corp rates endure. So my issue is this is adding trillion dollar deficits for the foreseeable future growing to 1.7 trillion by 2035 and we got small tax cuts for 80% of the middle class averaging just over $1000/yr. That's ~$20/week on average for those that got a cut (which is the majority of course). That's a 50 cent per hour raise. It's something, but it's insignificant compared to the benefits at the top end of the income ladder imho. Is that worth trillion $ deficits? The value of the dollar is going down and I'm not really sure it's a big net win for most people. 50 cents/hour isn't going to help you afford better housing, college, or even keep pace with medical costs which are eating up more than that's adding for most.

2. Companies add jobs when there's demand for services and products they need to create/deliver more of. Just because you give them more money, they don't create jobs without demand. Putting money in people's hands who need to spend it drives 70% of the economy and increases demand which leads to job creation. Companies expanding stock buy backs and not raising wages is an indicator that they really didn't need the tax cuts or didn't have increased demand or need to hire. I'm a believer in trickle up, not trickle down and I think basics economics supports that. I agree with you in spirit here. We need more jobs and better paying jobs. But demand is the driver, not supply. Supply has to keep up with demand and that's why you hire typically.

3. I'm not a fan of either political party and see both as dangerous to our future. I do think we need smarter and younger people that understand technology and where the world is rapidly evolving. Most politicians seem clueless and are stuck in yesterday more than considering tomorrow. I think we've been ok for the last 4 years because while our prez had some extreme positions, he lacked in execution which made him tamer than he sounded like he'd be. On the flip side, the Dems are all over the place philosophically, but I think we'll be ok because Biden is more of a centrist than the majority of the dems.

During the last 4 years, the hope was that Trump wouldn't fudge things up too bad. I think we're in the same place now for the next 4 years, let's not fudge it up again. I really do think it's 2 1 termers back to back and Biden plays the role of Jimmy Carter for us. I think he's just there to heal the country and get people talking again after we've been divided a little too long during the last 2 presidencies.

[Northern_Blitz]

I work extensively in international business around the world. The employees in those countries aren't working for nothing and I'm not referring to third world sweatshops sewing Nikes. Skilled laborers get paid very well around the world but the corporate tax rates, especially in Europe and Asia, are lower than in the US. Companies have a legal obligation to stockholders. They have to maximize profits and if the US tax rates make that difficult they will go elsewhere.

As an undergrad, I worked for a large van assembly plant in Windsor, ON (across the river from Detroit, but in Canada). Maybe 20 years ago?

They were about half way done construction of a very expensive renovation to the paint shop.

Then, they got a sweet deal on corporate taxes from TN (?).

They packed up the whole plant and moved.

I'm sure that this isn't the only time this has happened.

[BURGH86STEEL]

I work extensively in international business around the world. The employees in those countries aren't working for nothing and I'm not referring to third world sweatshops sewing Nikes. Skilled laborers get paid very well around the world but the corporate tax rates, especially in Europe and Asia, are lower than in the US. Companies have a legal obligation to stockholders. They have to maximize profits and if the US tax rates make that difficult they will go elsewhere.

Regardless, wages are significantly lower in some countries like Thailand and the Philippines for example. They generally are not paying US type wages in those countries.

So maximizing profits is basically boiling down to greed for a lot of individuals IMO.

[flippy]

I work extensively in international business around the world. The employees in those countries aren't working for nothing and I'm not referring to third world sweatshops sewing Nikes. Skilled laborers get paid very well around the world but the corporate tax rates, especially in Europe and Asia, are lower than in the US. Companies have a legal obligation to stockholders. They have to maximize profits and if the US tax rates make that difficult they will go elsewhere.

I'd consider the extreme of taking corp taxes to $0 and implementing a VAT in the US.

With a VAT, it's consumption/transaction based tax so even if a company doesn't operate in the US, they'd have to pay it and we consume a lot and you make up the drop in corp taxes here.

Taking corp taxes to $0 would incentivize more companies to land here unless they were looking for lower wages, manufacturing near a consumer, etc.

I know that's a very extreme position and there's likely reasons to land somewhere in the middle, but the point is you could completely rewrite/modernize the tax code. But the challenge is the parties don't negotiate with one another and the special interests own both sides and wouldn't allow it.

[Oviedo]

Regardless, wages are significantly lower in some countries like Thailand and the Philippines for example. They generally are not paying US type wages in those countries. <br>
<br>
So maximizing profits is basically boiling down to greed for a lot of individuals IMO.

Like 60%+ of Americans I'm sure you have an IRA or 401K. That so-called greed is what is building your retirement savings as company stock prices go up. I'm all for greed supporting my retirement or are you comfortable with a social security check from a Gov't with serious debt issues?

[Northern_Blitz]

I'd consider the extreme of taking corp taxes to $0 and implementing a VAT in the US.

With a VAT, it's consumption/transaction based tax so even if a company doesn't operate in the US, they'd have to pay it and we consume a lot and you make up the drop in corp taxes here.

Taking corp taxes to $0 would incentivize more companies to land here unless they were looking for lower wages, manufacturing near a consumer, etc.

I know that's a very extreme position and there's likely reasons to land somewhere in the middle, but the point is you could completely rewrite/modernize the tax code. But the challenge is the parties don't negotiate with one another and the special interests own both sides and wouldn't allow it.

This is the problem with basically everything political IMO.

And unfortunately, it seems to be spreading beyond the political operators to normal people (the not talking / negotiating part. I'd love to be raking in the cash from lobbyists ).

I think the good news is that IRL interactions seem to be still pretty normal / rational (at least in my experience).

And a thread like this shows that people can talk about things reasonably.

[Starlifter]

Anyone care to guess how high the stack would be if you set out the US tax code? 15 feet? 20 feet?

The point is - we can all debate respectfully on what SHOULD happen. But I've always believed - the more pages congress writes, the more ways smart people and smart corporations will find ways to reduce their tax burden. I don't believe a flat tax is the answer as that impacts lower income more disproportionally - but if we could find a way to write our policy in a 50 page pamphlet, it might go a long way towards achieving the intended results, whatever those happen to be at the time.

[flippy]

Anyone care to guess how high the stack would be if you set out the US tax code? 15 feet? 20 feet?

The point is - we can all debate respectfully on what SHOULD happen. But I've always believed - the more pages congress writes, the more ways smart people and smart corporations will find ways to reduce their tax burden. I don't believe a flat tax is the answer as that impacts lower income more disproportionally - but if we could find a way to write our policy in a 50 page pamphlet, it might go a long way towards achieving the intended results, whatever those happen to be at the time.

Let's go for 1 page

I'm down with in order to create a law, you need to remove 2.

And all laws should be easy to understand for lay people

While I'm at it, I could probably write 10,000 pages on things people should do to make things simpler and that's an oxymoron so I give up....

[Oviedo]

I'd consider the extreme of taking corp taxes to $0 and implementing a VAT in the US.

With a VAT, it's consumption/transaction based tax so even if a company doesn't operate in the US, they'd have to pay it and we consume a lot and you make up the drop in corp taxes here.

Taking corp taxes to $0 would incentivize more companies to land here unless they were looking for lower wages, manufacturing near a consumer, etc.

I know that's a very extreme position and there's likely reasons to land somewhere in the middle, but the point is you could completely rewrite/modernize the tax code. But the challenge is the parties don't negotiate with one another and the special interests own both sides and wouldn't allow it.

We agree on that. Pay for what you chose to pay for versus confiscation of your money

[feltdizz]

It works at keeping the money I earn in my pocket. That's still working unless Biden is able to reverse those tax cuts.

you make over $400K? Well I’m so sorry if you have to pay little bit more under Biden.

if not, I’m pretty sure your taxes aren’t going up and if I’m not mistaken
those Trump tax cuts for the regular folk were expiring and only the tax for the top 1% were permanent.

I’ll give it to the GOP. They do a great job making regular folk believe they are or will one day be the 1%.