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Thread: National Old Guy Voting Day

  1. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.wizard View Post
    It won't work long term for America, right now the top 20% earns about 50% of the income and the continues to grow. So you have 80% of the work force fighting for 50% of the income while that share is declining. This is why I laugh when people with money cry that they are taxed too much, they don't don't seem to have a problem with the disparity in income, but they sure love to complain that their tax rate is 15%-20% higher.
    The Gini coefficient (a common measure of inequality) has basically been flat in the US since ~ '93 (moved from 0.46 to 0.48 ).

    It rose slightly under 8 years of Obama (0.47 in '08 to 0.48 in '16).

    It stayed essentially constant under Trump @ 0.48. I did rise to 0.49 in '18, but fell back to 0.48 in '19.

    Data taken from the 1st hit on Google: http://Data taken from the 1st hit o...%2030%20years.

    Note: I hate graphs like this with super misleading axes. It makes the changes look much larger than they are by starting the vertical at 0.43 instead of 0 (which represents no inequality).

    It seems to me that the actually data doesn't seem suggest much of a difference depending on which team occupies the White House. Income inequality seems to fit into this category.

    The packaging is different, but it seems to be basically the same product inside.

    It was pretty much the same in Canada with the 2 major parties. I think the difference in messaging is bigger here in the US (but it's getting bigger in Canada too, so maybe it's just a sign of the times).
    Last edited by Northern_Blitz; 11-29-2020 at 08:51 PM.

  2. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by BURGH86STEEL View Post
    Capitalism probably doesn't work long term for everyone when there is little empathy and wage stagnation.
    This is why pure capitalism would suck.

    It's also why we don't have pure capitalism.

    But the good thing about capitalism is that you can implement it without the fanatic zeal required to implement socialist economic strategies (note that I mean actual socialism and not countries like Denmark that are capitalistic - means of production are privately owned - but have higher taxes / more redistribution of wealth than we have).

  3. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    The Gini coefficient (a common measure of inequality) has basically been flat in the US since ~ '93 (moved from 0.46 to 0.48 ).

    It rose slightly under 8 years of Obama (0.47 in '08 to 0.48 in '16).

    It stayed essentially constant under Trump @ 0.48. I did rise to 0.49 in '18, but fell back to 0.48 in '19.

    Data taken from the 1st hit on Google: http://Data taken from the 1st hit o...%2030%20years.

    Note: I hate graphs like this with super misleading axes. It makes the changes look much larger than they are by starting the vertical at 0.43 instead of 0 (which represents no inequality).

    It seems to me that the actually data doesn't seem suggest much of a difference depending on which team occupies the White House. Income inequality seems to fit into this category.

    The packaging is different, but it seems to be basically the same product inside.

    It was pretty much the same in Canada with the 2 major parties. I think the difference in messaging is bigger here in the US (but it's getting bigger in Canada too, so maybe it's just a sign of the times).
    Ya it doesn't matter which party is in power, the problem is with the system.

  4. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    This is why pure capitalism would suck.

    It's also why we don't have pure capitalism.

    But the good thing about capitalism is that you can implement it without the fanatic zeal required to implement socialist economic strategies (note that I mean actual socialism and not countries like Denmark that are capitalistic - means of production are privately owned - but have higher taxes / more redistribution of wealth than we have).
    The signs are all around us that something isn't right with "the system".

  5. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by BURGH86STEEL View Post
    The signs are all around us that something isn't right with "the system".
    Definitely.
    From the 2010-2020 season, (A 10 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks.

    Dolphin fans in the 90s who wanted to hold on to Don Shula for what he did in the playoffs in the 70s...
    Are the same as Steeler fans (of 2020 ) holding on to Tomlin for what he did in 2008, with Cowher's players & coaches

  6. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlifter View Post

    Success is born of hard work. But the most important part is first CHOOSING to be successful.
    That comes after choosing to be born in America and choosing to be born into the right family which hopefully chooses the right path for us before we are even able to make choices for ourselves.

    Just imagine if your dad signed you up for season tickets for the Browns or Bengals the day you were born. Your life would probably be in disarray right now

  7. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    The Gini coefficient (a common measure of inequality) has basically been flat in the US since ~ '93 (moved from 0.46 to 0.48 ).

    It rose slightly under 8 years of Obama (0.47 in '08 to 0.48 in '16).

    It stayed essentially constant under Trump @ 0.48. I did rise to 0.49 in '18, but fell back to 0.48 in '19.

    Data taken from the 1st hit on Google: http://Data taken from the 1sthit on...%2030%20years.

    Note: I hate graphs like this with super misleading axes. It makes the changes look much larger than they are by starting the vertical at 0.43 instead of 0 (which represents no inequality).

    It seems to me that the actually data doesn't seem suggest much of a difference depending on which team occupies the White House. Income inequality seems to fit into this category.

    The packaging is different, but it seems to be basically the same product inside.

    It was pretty much the same in Canada with the 2 major parties. I think the difference in messaging is bigger here in the US (but it's getting bigger in Canada too, so maybe it's just a sign of the times).

    This number has slowly trended upward for the last 50 years. Generally political party has almost no impact.

    I really don't know how sustainable this is for the long haul. Trying to put it in more concrete terms that we can understand, the average household income has gone up about 50% in the last 50 years while the average price of a house has gone up about 1500%.

    The middle class is slowly evaporating. The average person over the last 50 years got a .8% raise annually over that time.

    Housing prices grew the fastest, but overall, inflation grew 570% over this time period. The price of stuff went up 11x as fast as the average household pay. Anyone that can justify or explain that the gov't and our leaders care about us individuals is delusional.

    The great gov't magic trick is to make people not look at the numbers and to keep us fixated on moral and social issues that divide us. And I'd say they've done an amazing job. Biden suckered in 80m of us. Trump suckered in another 74m.

    Most people passionately hate one or the other. But the one truth is that rich people will get richer and poor people will get poorer no matter who is in charge. Neither side really makes that big of an impact for us average joes.

    I can see why people get frustrated and want cult leaders in charge. Politics is like religion. It makes no sense logically. Obama, Trump, Biden and every president before them are the same guy.

  8. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by flippy View Post
    This number has slowly trended upward for the last 50 years. Generally political party has almost no impact.

    I really don't know how sustainable this is for the long haul. Trying to put it in more concrete terms that we can understand, the average household income has gone up about 50% in the last 50 years while the average price of a house has gone up about 1500%.

    The middle class is slowly evaporating. The average person over the last 50 years got a .8% raise annually over that time.

    Housing prices grew the fastest, but overall, inflation grew 570% over this time period. The price of stuff went up 11x as fast as the average household pay. Anyone that can justify or explain that the gov't and our leaders care about us individuals is delusional.

    The great gov't magic trick is to make people not look at the numbers and to keep us fixated on moral and social issues that divide us. And I'd say they've done an amazing job. Biden suckered in 80m of us. Trump suckered in another 74m.

    Most people passionately hate one or the other. But the one truth is that rich people will get richer and poor people will get poorer no matter who is in charge. Neither side really makes that big of an impact for us average joes.

    I can see why people get frustrated and want cult leaders in charge. Politics is like religion. It makes no sense logically. Obama, Trump, Biden and every president before them are the same guy.
    I agree that the trend is slowly up, but it's been basically flat for the last 12 years. So maybe it's reaching a plateau?

    The inflation numbers you have seem shocking. If inflation was really that bad relative to income growth, why do I have way more stuff than my grandparents did? Do you feel like you have way more stuff that past generations too? Maybe my perception is skewed because my grandparents fled Europe with almost nothing (although they both had solid blue collar jobs by the time I came around). I also think easy credit and losing the depression from living memory have made us generally to comfortable with debt (individually and nationally).

    My guess is also looking at housing inflation is misleading.

    House prices are kind of cherry picking. I think you have to look at carrying costs. And my guess is that the range people look at for house prices also cherry pick the range to start when the fed rate was ~20% and end now when it's 0%. These rates have a huge effect on house prices.

    Image how home prices would plummet if the feed rate was 20% again.

    I'd then look at inflation of carrying costs regionally. My guess is that there are many places that are close to normal (like upstate NY) and other places that are even worse (like SF or Seattle). I think the cost of living in big cities is outpacing the benefits, especially with the pandemic which is taking away many of the benefits in the short term. But I've never wanted to live in a big city.

    I do think inflation in education and health care are problems. I think credit for education should be tighter and / or federal funding for university programs tied to some kind of income to tuition ratio (or something that measures ability to pay loans back better than the graduation rates I think these things are currently tied to... Because grad rate is easy easier to measure than placement rate or starting income).

    I agree with you that political parties are always playing some kind of self serving shell game.
    Last edited by Northern_Blitz; 11-30-2020 at 07:31 AM.

  9. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by flippy View Post
    That comes after choosing to be born in America and choosing to be born into the right family which hopefully chooses the right path for us before we are even able to make choices for ourselves.

    Just imagine if your dad signed you up for season tickets for the Browns or Bengals the day you were born. Your life would probably be in disarray right now
    true that we're all fortunate to live in the greatest country in history!

    but the irony of the above is - my dad grew up in the projects in cleveland. It was my mom that made him move to the 'burgh. She grew up in the North side. That was a close call!
    2014 MNF EXEC CHAMPION!!!

  10. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    I agree that the trend is slowly up, but it's been basically flat for the last 12 years. So maybe it's reaching a plateau?

    The inflation numbers you have seem shocking. If inflation was really that bad relative to income growth, why do I have way more stuff than my grandparents did? Do you feel like you have way more stuff that past generations too? Maybe my perception is skewed because my grandparents fled Europe with almost nothing (although they both had solid blue collar jobs by the time I came around). I also think easy credit and losing the depression from living memory have made us generally to comfortable with debt (individually and nationally).

    My guess is also looking at housing inflation is misleading.

    House prices are kind of cherry picking. I think you have to look at carrying costs. And my guess is that the range people look at for house prices also cherry pick the range to start when the fed rate was ~20% and end now when it's 0%. These rates have a huge effect on house prices.

    Image how home prices would plummet if the feed rate was 20% again.

    I'd then look at inflation of carrying costs regionally. My guess is that there are many places that are close to normal (like upstate NY) and other places that are even worse (like SF or Seattle). I think the cost of living in big cities is outpacing the benefits, especially with the pandemic which is taking away many of the benefits in the short term. But I've never wanted to live in a big city.

    I do think inflation in education and health care are problems. I think credit for education should be tighter and / or federal funding for university programs tied to some kind of income to tuition ratio (or something that measures ability to pay loans back better than the graduation rates I think these things are currently tied to... Because grad rate is easy easier to measure than placement rate or starting income).

    I agree with you that political parties are always playing some kind of self serving shell game.
    Comparing stuff, I'd say I do have more than my grandparents. I don't know their finances, but I'd guess they were poor. I remember one set didn't have an indoor bathroom and I'd have to use their out house when I visited.

    They also lived on 1 income which was the norm back then vs now when 2 incomes are much more common. And my grandparents averaged 6 kids compared to me having none. So 2 incomes, no kids, and 50 years have gotten my situation from poor to middle class.

    If I had 6 kids and 1 income, I'd be below poor and wouldn't have any idea how to get a leg up today. I'm sure we'd figure it out due to necessity, but it seems like it might be a struggle.

    Re: housing, you make a good point. Perhaps the increase is more startling because interest rates were around 20% due to 70s inflation and now interest rates are at 0. But it's still a really big delta relative to wages not growing significantly.

    Other than housing, healthcare, and education, prices on a lot of other stuff are not that bad.

    Also to your point, some places are more affordable than others for sure. I think the pandemic may help here making the world more accepting of people living anywhere they choose and being able to work remotely. You could realistically work for Google and live on a farm in IA and be a king in IA vs being broke in CA even though your household income is over $500k/yr.

    Not having to live where you work is a big break thru. I think universal college education/trade school is the next break thru that should happen. We created free high schools in response to the 1st industrial revolution. Tech, AI, etc. are having a bigger impact on the world this time around and it's only logical we rethink our approach to education if we don't want to leave people behind.

    There's infinite other things we could work on. I'm not always sure how to prioritize them. I think I'd start with how can we end poverty, homelessness, sickness (physical and mental), and food insecurity. Then once you take care of some baseline for people, then they can focus on more meaningful things like education, art, entrepreneurship, etc.

    If there was a way to ensure everyone had equal opportunities and their basic needs taken care of, then we'd all benefit from the output of more people broadly. On some level, the biggest missing component in American life is a shared purpose. What's our goal? To get by? To thrive? To make money? To be happy? If you ask people, I think everyone would view America's purpose differently.

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