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Thread: Tomlin ‘Excited’ About CB Justin Layne

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    No. But I don't really follow college football, and I'm nowhere near as deep into the draft as some around here.

    I think it's a bit crazy to think we could have moved from 25 to at least 4 so we could have selected Ramsey before the Jags.

    For the 2020 draft, Pro-Football reference puts the value of the 4th pick at 1800 and the 25th pick at 720. The difference is 1080 points (or like the 14th overall selection).

    For contract, our move for Bush was from 20th (850 pts) to 10th (1300). The difference there is 450 (a mid second round pick).

    So, it would have cost about 2.5x as much as the move up for Bush. And I basically think that's impossible (or at least you need a very stupid trading partner).

    But honestly, I think any GM that moves out from a top 5 pick should probably get fired immediately. I think the chance to draft elite players drops off extremely quickly in sports drafts. And elite players are so rare that going from 5 to 25 seems like career suicide to me.
    well thought out response

  2. #102
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    Besides QB, I don’t think there is any one piece that makes you a SB contender in a draft.

    I would suggest our current blueprint of acquiring a proven player in FA or a trade if we truly believed we were one piece away from a SB.

    The draft is too much of a crap shoot.
    Tomlin’s coming back so what can you do?


  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    I thought you were talking about the best CB in the draft and I don't think they'd fall to 11.

    But if they did and we could do a Bush like deal, then I don't think it would be unreasonable. In your Ramsey example that means six more teams pass on him.

    But that deal for that price is far more likely for a position like ILB IMO because CBs are very highly valued.

    But I'm just guessing. Maybe there are times when the 2nd ranked CB is available outside the top 10 picks.

    But I think most teams would just pick the CB instead of trading out since you can always play several good CBs at the same time.

    Just my opinion though
    Your right that the best CB in the draft wouldn't probably last until 11; when you consider that someone like C.J. Henderson (arguably the second best CB in the draft ) went at # 9. But if we had to pay a price for an Elite cornerback, the price through the draft would probably be preferable compared to say if we wanted Jalen Ramsey right now if he were a free agent. I guess what I'm probing is while we were in our best window of time through the 2014-2018 period, why wouldn't we do what it takes to get an elite cornerback and make a Super Bowl. Maybe the notion of us paying top dollar for an Elite cornerback isn't in the salary structure of the organization. And if that is so, then that is something that needs to be re-evaluated because I would have paid Gilmore (of the Patriots) top dollar if given the opportunity.

    A whole lot of these "this is how we've always done it " notions need to be re-evaluated in the light of the modern day game. Our cornerback play at this second is okay with Nelson & Hadden but Hadden is no spring chicken and soon we will have to find an adequate replacement. I think Captain Lemmings hit it on the head when he said only the Patriots have seemed to figure it out on what positions to spend big dollars on and what positions not to spend big dollars on in the totality of a team.
    From the 2010-2019 season, (A 9 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks.
    Dolphin fans in the 90’s who wanted to hold on to Don Shula for what he did in the 70’s...

    Are the same as Steeler fans (of 2020 ) holding on to Tomlin for what he did in 2008.

    [url]http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/50121-A-Positive-View-of-they-Draft/page17[/url]

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    Besides QB, I don’t think there is any one piece that makes you a SB contender in a draft.

    I would suggest our current blueprint of acquiring a proven player in FA or a trade if we truly believed we were one piece away from a SB.

    The draft is too much of a crap shoot.
    I totally agree. The draft builds your core, but you have to use free agency to get that last 10-20%. The challenge is when you are paying a franchise QB your ability to do that is greatly limited

    Given what we have been paying Ben for a very long time I really appreciate how well the FO and coaches have kept us competitive because that is counter to the parity objectives and rules the NFL has in place

  5. #105
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    The Patriots didn’t just get Gilmore and go to a SB.

    They were going to SB’s before Gilmore.

    People love to use the Pats because it’s convenient but every year teams draft elite CB’s and miss the playoffs or don’t win a SB.
    Tomlin’s coming back so what can you do?


  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo View Post
    I totally agree. The draft builds your core, but you have to use free agency to get that last 10-20%. The challenge is when you are paying a franchise QB your ability to do that is greatly limited

    Given what we have been paying Ben for a very long time I really appreciate how well the FO and coaches have kept us competitive because that is counter to the parity objectives and rules the NFL has in place
    The idea that you magically get one player and win a SB is hilarious.

    That’s not how this works.
    Tomlin’s coming back so what can you do?


  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    Your right that the best CB in the draft wouldn't probably last until 11; when you consider that someone like C.J. Henderson (arguably the second best CB in the draft ) went at # 9. But if we had to pay a price for an Elite cornerback, the price through the draft would probably be preferable compared to say if we wanted Jalen Ramsey right now if he were a free agent. I guess what I'm probing is while we were in our best window of time through the 2014-2018 period, why wouldn't we do what it takes to get an elite cornerback and make a Super Bowl. Maybe the notion of us paying top dollar for an Elite cornerback isn't in the salary structure of the organization. And if that is so, then that is something that needs to be re-evaluated because I would have paid Gilmore (of the Patriots) top dollar if given the opportunity.

    A whole lot of these "this is how we've always done it " notions need to be re-evaluated in the light of the modern day game. Our cornerback play at this second is okay with Nelson & Hadden but Hadden is no spring chicken and soon we will have to find an adequate replacement. I think Captain Lemmings hit it on the head when he said only the Patriots have seemed to figure it out on what positions to spend big dollars on and what positions not to spend big dollars on in the totality of a team.
    Remember how this year it felt like we didn't have enough picks to figure out how to get a starting NT or a 3rd S?

    Now imagine a year where we traded an entire draft (and probably premium picks from the next year) to get a high pick.

    Now imagine that the guy we traded up for busts.

    I would love to be able to have a premium pick (and I'd probably try to use it on a QB and not a CB). I think we should probably tank when Ben retires so that we have a chance of getting the next franchise QB.

    But, trading up to do it would be prohibitively expensive even if you could find someone stupid enough to trade down that far (I'm assuming that we'll be drafting 32nd, or at least in the bottom third of the draft).

    And trading away all of our draft capital makes it so we can't shore up the team anywhere else.

    The kind of acquisition you're talking about almost has to come through UFA. But that won't work for us now because we have no cap room because we have a very good QB making market value.

    Or maybe if we did something crazy like trade away Ben before he signed his last contract, we could have gotten a ton of draft capital. And while I think we probably could have been deals like that, it would have been a huge risk that would have given rise to massive fan outrage.
    Talent vs coaching: [url]www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/48851-Poll-Question-for-Everyone/page14[/url]

    Steelers vs. Other Teams with good QBs: ... /47985-Steelers-most-successful-failure/page5

    Tomlin playoff record vs. expectations (Cowher pg24): ... /48742-Rooney-Brown-meeting/page22

    Tomlin's Las year: ... 49599-Just-sayin?p=778284#post778284

    Maniac Talent>Coaching: ...49632-Trades?p=779158#post779158

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    Remember how this year it felt like we didn't have enough picks to figure out how to get a starting NT or a 3rd S?

    Now imagine a year where we traded an entire draft (and probably premium picks from the next year) to get a high pick.

    Now imagine that the guy we traded up for busts.

    I would love to be able to have a premium pick (and I'd probably try to use it on a QB and not a CB). I think we should probably tank when Ben retires so that we have a chance of getting the next franchise QB.

    But, trading up to do it would be prohibitively expensive even if you could find someone stupid enough to trade down that far (I'm assuming that we'll be drafting 32nd, or at least in the bottom third of the draft).

    And trading away all of our draft capital makes it so we can't shore up the team anywhere else.

    The kind of acquisition you're talking about almost has to come through UFA. But that won't work for us now because we have no cap room because we have a very good QB making market value.

    Or maybe if we did something crazy like trade away Ben before he signed his last contract, we could have gotten a ton of draft capital. And while I think we probably could have been deals like that, it would have been a huge risk that would have given rise to massive fan outrage.
    I hear ya but we traded up to get Bush; and no one was saying, " No..what if he turns out to be a bust?" You can't go in thinking like that. No one does when they trade up.
    Just because other teams may mess up is not a reflection on us if we trade up to get a specific guy.

    If we had a stacked team like the teams we had from 2014-2018, and we had one particular position (cornerback) that was keeping us from getting to the Super Bowl, I'd be all in to get an Elite Cornerback to get us to the big dance. No matter how I felt after the draft, getting to the Super Bowl would erase any negative feellings I had about the draft.
    From the 2010-2019 season, (A 9 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks.
    Dolphin fans in the 90’s who wanted to hold on to Don Shula for what he did in the 70’s...

    Are the same as Steeler fans (of 2020 ) holding on to Tomlin for what he did in 2008.

    [url]http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/50121-A-Positive-View-of-they-Draft/page17[/url]

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    The Patriots didn’t just get Gilmore and go to a SB.

    They were going to SB’s before Gilmore.

    People love to use the Pats because it’s convenient but every year teams draft elite CB’s and miss the playoffs or don’t win a SB.
    exactly, the Rams traded for Jalen Ramsey and didn't even make the playoffs.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    The Patriots didn’t just get Gilmore and go to a SB.

    They were going to SB’s before Gilmore.

    People love to use the Pats because it’s convenient but every year teams draft elite CB’s and miss the playoffs or don’t win a SB.
    Felt,

    We were already making the playoffs as well; Just like the Patriots. For years, it was our play at cornerback which hurt us in that period. I wasn't talking about other teams. I was referring specifically to us and us alone. We were making the playoffs on the reg. We needed secondary help.
    From the 2010-2019 season, (A 9 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks.
    Dolphin fans in the 90’s who wanted to hold on to Don Shula for what he did in the 70’s...

    Are the same as Steeler fans (of 2020 ) holding on to Tomlin for what he did in 2008.

    [url]http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/50121-A-Positive-View-of-they-Draft/page17[/url]

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