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Thread: Trade Deadline

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiproast View Post
    Carroll was the defensive coordinator of the Jets prior to becoming their head coach.

    After the Jets fired him as HC, and before the Pats hired him as HC, he was DC for the 49ers.

    He was also a defensive coordinator at the college level, earlier in his career.
    Shows what I know, eh?

    Thanks
    Talent vs coaching: [url]www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/48851-Poll-Question-for-Everyone/page14[/url]

    Steelers vs. Other Teams with good QBs: ... /47985-Steelers-most-successful-failure/page5

    Tomlin playoff record vs. expectations (Cowher pg24): ... /48742-Rooney-Brown-meeting/page22

    Tomlin's Las year: ... 49599-Just-sayin?p=778284#post778284

    Maniac Talent>Coaching: ...49632-Trades?p=779158#post779158

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelz09 View Post
    It's both. Early in Tomlin's tenure as HC, I don't think he's had as much say as he does now. That's probably natural for any position. Regardless, I think if you have a specialty then your team should at least be adequate or exceed in that area. With Tomlin, it's the exact opposite. He is awful at what is supposed to be his expertise. That makes him look like a fraud.

    I look at Pete Carroll and I see him as a defense kinda guy. Historically, he's assembled pretty good defenses in Seattle. Even when he loses personnel, he makes good adjustments in that area.

    Sean Payton is an offensive guru and his offenses have been good and he's been able to make good adjustments based on personnel, etc.

    Tomlin's background is as a secondary coach in TB. That is what got him his next job which then lead to the Steelers HC job. However, it's painfully obvious that he just benefited from a very good assembled pass defense and he reaped the benefits. As a Vikings DC, his secondary was one of the worst in the league. Sound familiar? I truly believe he was along for the ride and his career advancement opportunities were more inline with him being in the right place at the right time rather than him building something from scratch and being successful at it. It happens all the time even outside of coaching. A little luck always helps.

    I don't know about you, but I hire people based on their expertise and track record. If you are a software engineer but your software is known to be extremely buggy, slow and crashes often then guess what? I don't want you on my team.

    If I'm hiring someone to treat my grass in my yard, am I going to hire my one neighbor's landscaper that treated his grass with the wrong chemicals and killed his entire front yard? No! I'm going to hire the guy across the street's landscaper that has a plush green front yard.

    Why? Because he's good at what he considers his expertise! Why would I want to hire someone that sucks at what they consider is their "specialty".
    (chuckled at the software engineer comp... i'm also in IT lead DBA. started as a developer, but, was "drafted" by our dba team because my stuff was efficient... so i *get* it)

    Having said that - he played WR at the college level. TBH, i never understood how he ended up coaching on the defensive side of the ball. i will say that the team has done a pretty good job at selecting WRs... coincidence? dunno

    As a DB coach, and later DC i wonder if he came in and executed an existing system, simply making good, solid tweaks, but living in and working in someone else's creation.
    My buddy works on cars - bought a racecar for cheap because it kept breaking on the other guy. Turns out a single gear kept grinding the teeth out... like a $15 part. I have to wonder if he showed up in TB and Minny and found that gear and became known as a "guru" when he shouldn't have been.

    As Steelers coach, it seems he's come in and stuck with the 34 (which made sense when you had Lebeau). These days, while i love a 34, I'm surprised he stuck with it. Granted, he had Lebeau for at least half a dozen years, he should have been well versed in it (as should Butler have been). I feel like he's searching for that gear and they may be in a nice rhythm with picking up cheap vets that fit team needs.

    This year, the defense has been GOOD. Really good. Even in the loss to the pats**, i was excited to see more man-to-man with all that speed. I thought a late-season matchup could have been much closer (with Ben).

    I'm not giving up yet; but, also not ready to commit for an extended period either. lol
    2013 MNF Executive Champion!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelz09 View Post
    I don't know about you, but I hire people based on their expertise and track record. If you are a software engineer but your software is known to be extremely buggy, slow and crashes often then guess what? I don't want you on my team.

    If I'm hiring someone to treat my grass in my yard, am I going to hire my one neighbor's landscaper that treated his grass with the wrong chemicals and killed his entire front yard? No! I'm going to hire the guy across the street's landscaper that has a plush green front yard.

    Why? Because he's good at what he considers his expertise! Why would I want to hire someone that sucks at what they consider is their "specialty".
    But if we follow your first analogy and your company is the Steelers:

    - Tomlin is a software engineer who's work is more efficient than anyone else your company has employed in the past. Except maybe Noll, who's work was more successful but maybe because your company had way more market share at the time (trying to reference the idea that there was no cap or free agency, so Noll had the benefit of getting to keep a ton of HoF players. It would be impossible to keep that much talent together for that long in today's NFL).

    - Plus if you want someone to treat your grass, pick the guy that wants to defend every blade!

    I think it's interesting that you're an engineer because I am too (mechanical, not software) and we look at this problem very differently. I think two of the cornerstones of engineering practice are to (1) value a good process over chasing result (a good process will give you good results more often in the long run) and (2) trust the evaluation of your process by looking at results in large sample sizes not small sample sizes.

    - It seems to me that so much of the anti-Tomlin argument is prioritizing playoff games (small sample size where he's actually over achieved vs. seeding) over regular season success (larger sample size that probably gives a better idea of true talent). To me, that goes against point (1) and (2) above.
    Talent vs coaching: [url]www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/48851-Poll-Question-for-Everyone/page14[/url]

    Steelers vs. Other Teams with good QBs: ... /47985-Steelers-most-successful-failure/page5

    Tomlin playoff record vs. expectations (Cowher pg24): ... /48742-Rooney-Brown-meeting/page22

    Tomlin's Las year: ... 49599-Just-sayin?p=778284#post778284

    Maniac Talent>Coaching: ...49632-Trades?p=779158#post779158

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelz09 View Post
    I like the Mikah trade. As Chris Carter was saying after the trade, Mikah is a better corner and FS than anyone in college football and FS is our weakest area on D. So, if you are going to draft a guy like that, you might as well go with the known commodity.

    And let's face it, Tomlin is God awful at evaluating prospects in what is supposed to be his specialty / area of expertise (i.e. the secondary). He's a proven failure in that arena. Another reason why the trade was better than drafting a bust in the secondary.
    +1 on paragraph 1

    -1 on paragraph 2

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post

    It seems to me that so much of the anti-Tomlin argument is prioritizing playoff games (small sample size where he's actually over achieved vs. seeding) over regular season success (larger sample size that probably gives a better idea of true talent). To me, that goes against point (1) and (2) above.
    North_Blitz, you need to stop. Seriously. Small sample size???

    He's been in the league for 12 seasons; the last eight, his playoff record has been abysmal (please see my signature for clarification on that). I'm not being harsh with you but the captured statement I have by you up above is a bold face lie. It is buddy.

    He started out hot when he had Cowher's players and coache's; and as they went away, so did his playoff success. That's the God's truth.

    Now you can talk about his early playoff success; no argument there. But the last 8 (going on 9) years is what matters; right now matters.....not what he did ten years ago.

    You sound like a Dolphins fan in the 1990's arguing that Don Shula is still a great coach based on what he did in the 1970's.

    Tomlin is not going to lead us to another Super Bowl. He's not. So why the love affair?
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

    My official proclamation: WE WILL NOT WIN ANOTHER SUPER BOWL WITH MIKE TOMLIN AS OUR HEAD COACH. SO WHY DELAY THE INEVITABLE?

    FIRE MIKE TOMLIN

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelz09 View Post
    I like the Mikah trade. As Chris Carter was saying after the trade, Mikah is a better corner and FS than anyone in college football and FS is our weakest area on D. So, if you are going to draft a guy like that, you might as well go with the known commodity.

    And let's face it, Tomlin is God awful at evaluating prospects in what is supposed to be his specialty / area of expertise (i.e. the secondary). He's a proven failure in that arena. Another reason why the trade was better than drafting a bust in the secondary.
    Your right in both paragraphs...

    Northcoast, come on dude....

    If Tomlin were good at evaluating & developing prospects, how come he hasn't drafted & developed a legit cornerback/safety his entire 12 year career here???

    And I'm not going for the argument that Colbert has been wrong on his picks for Tomlin ALL 12 YEARS! I'm just not. Tomlin can't develop secondary players in a area he claimed to be his specialty...that's the God's honest truth.
    Last edited by Steel Maniac; 10-11-2019 at 12:15 PM.
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

    My official proclamation: WE WILL NOT WIN ANOTHER SUPER BOWL WITH MIKE TOMLIN AS OUR HEAD COACH. SO WHY DELAY THE INEVITABLE?

    FIRE MIKE TOMLIN

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    But if we follow your first analogy and your company is the Steelers:

    - Tomlin is a software engineer who's work is more efficient than anyone else your company has employed in the past. Except maybe Noll, who's work was more successful but maybe because your company had way more market share at the time (trying to reference the idea that there was no cap or free agency, so Noll had the benefit of getting to keep a ton of HoF players. It would be impossible to keep that much talent together for that long in today's NFL).

    - Plus if you want someone to treat your grass, pick the guy that wants to defend every blade!

    I think it's interesting that you're an engineer because I am too (mechanical, not software) and we look at this problem very differently. I think two of the cornerstones of engineering practice are to (1) value a good process over chasing result (a good process will give you good results more often in the long run) and (2) trust the evaluation of your process by looking at results in large sample sizes not small sample sizes.

    - It seems to me that so much of the anti-Tomlin argument is prioritizing playoff games (small sample size where he's actually over achieved vs. seeding) over regular season success (larger sample size that probably gives a better idea of true talent). To me, that goes against point (1) and (2) above.
    Well, I've evolved from a software engineer to a system engineer / architect & team lead. I didn't get much joy out of software development.

    I used engineering and a landscaper as an example of someone with expertise (or lack thereof). Coaching and engineering are not comparable imo but I guess like with everything else, you can find similarities if you look hard enough.

    For example, building a team could be defined as a long-term process with short/intermediate/long term goals. This could be similar to engineering. Clock management, challenges, play calling, adjustments, personnel match-ups, etc are much more ad-hoc in nature and doesn't fit many engineering methodologies. Software engineering in particular has concepts like "agile" but they still aren't nearly as ad-hoc as those coaching decisions.

    Bottom line, Tomlin is NO engineer He's much to vocal with really good cliches.
    Last edited by steelz09; 10-11-2019 at 12:24 PM.
    Tomlin: Let's unleash hell and "mop the floor" with the competition.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    North_Blitz, you need to stop. Seriously. Small sample size???

    He's been in the league for 12 seasons; the last eight, his playoff record has been abysmal (please see my signature for clarification on that). I'm not being harsh with you but the captured statement I have by you up above is a bold face lie. It is buddy.

    He started out hot when he had Cowher's players and coache's; and as they went away, so did his playoff success. That's the God's truth.

    Now you can talk about his early playoff success; no argument there. But the last 8 (going on 9) years is what matters; right now matters.....not what he did ten years ago.

    You sound like a Dolphins fan in the 1990's arguing that Don Shula is still a great coach based on what he did in the 1970's.

    Tomlin is not going to lead us to another Super Bowl. He's not. So why the love affair?
    Maniac,

    You seem to be arguing that looking at 8 out of Tomlin's ~212 total games as a head coach is not using a small sample size.

    I think that's a poor argument.

    I don't have a love affair with Tomlin. I have said many times that I'd be OK if we let him go, but I don't think it will solve the problems on the team. I do hope that my team doesn't make decisions based on poor arguments though. I try to point out arguments that I think are poor (which I think includes the majority of arguments against Tomlin). I've probably been too emotional about doing it this season, because watching the team be this bad sucks.

    We can evaluate the idea that firing Tomlin won't fix the problems from last year. Last year, we sucked because our turnover ratio was terrible and our kicker was terrible. We didn't fire Tomlin. Now our turnover ratio is great. I won't write down how our kicker is doing because I'm superstitions about stuff like that. I argued that bad luck was a big reason we were poor in those areas and that they would revert to the mean with time. And look what happened.

    We're actually doing even better than you might expect with the turnover ratio. I think a big part of that (on top of just luck) is that we infused our defense with talent. I've also argued that talent is more important than coaching. This is another testable hypothesis. Last year we were bad on D and many said it was because we didn't have good talent at ILB, CB, and S. This year we look a lot better on D with the same coaches and an infusion of talent at CB, ILB, and S. Maybe Butler / Tomlin has the same coaching ability he always had. He just has better players now than he did before.
    Last edited by Northern_Blitz; 10-11-2019 at 12:40 PM.
    Talent vs coaching: [url]www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/48851-Poll-Question-for-Everyone/page14[/url]

    Steelers vs. Other Teams with good QBs: ... /47985-Steelers-most-successful-failure/page5

    Tomlin playoff record vs. expectations (Cowher pg24): ... /48742-Rooney-Brown-meeting/page22

    Tomlin's Las year: ... 49599-Just-sayin?p=778284#post778284

    Maniac Talent>Coaching: ...49632-Trades?p=779158#post779158

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelz09 View Post
    Well, I've evolved from a software engineer to a system engineer / architect & team lead. I didn't get much joy out of software development.

    I used engineering and a landscaper as an example of someone with expertise (or lack thereof). Coaching and engineering are not comparable imo but I guess like with everything else, you can find similarities if you look hard enough.

    For example, building a team could be defined as a long-term process with short/intermediate/long term goals. This could be similar to engineering. Clock management, challenges, play calling, adjustments, personnel match-ups, etc are much more ad-hoc in nature and doesn't fit many engineering methodologies. Software engineering in particular has concepts like "agile" but they still aren't nearly as ad-hoc as those coaching decisions.

    Bottom line, Tomlin is NO engineer He's much to vocal with really good cliches.
    This...I bet he even looks people in the eyes when he talks to them

    I also get the general distaste with slick talking salespeople types. But I tend to totally ignore everything said in press conferences because I think it's all noise and no signal.
    Last edited by Northern_Blitz; 10-11-2019 at 12:41 PM.
    Talent vs coaching: [url]www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/48851-Poll-Question-for-Everyone/page14[/url]

    Steelers vs. Other Teams with good QBs: ... /47985-Steelers-most-successful-failure/page5

    Tomlin playoff record vs. expectations (Cowher pg24): ... /48742-Rooney-Brown-meeting/page22

    Tomlin's Las year: ... 49599-Just-sayin?p=778284#post778284

    Maniac Talent>Coaching: ...49632-Trades?p=779158#post779158

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    serious question... evaluation is it Tomlin or is it Colbert?

    I ask because I can generally tell whether you think Tomlin should stay or go based on statements like this.
    I think that the true answer is that none of us really know the division of authority within the draft process. All answers received are just a guess on the part of the poster.

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