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Thread: AOD: Which pair of Steelers OLBs was more dominant? Woodley/Harrison or Greene/Lloyd?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    Cap, if your talking about his averaging 10 wins a season, I've acknowledged that. But again, our greatness is defined by what we do in the post season.

    The only point I was making is that YOU pointed out how Harrison and Woodley were money in postseason and that trumps anything Green/Lloyd accomplished. So, with that being said, it's the same in coaching as well.

    It is inconsistent to say that you can use playoff success to define Harrison & Woodley greatness but playoff success can't be used to define a coach's success.

    But if you feel I"ve hijacked the thread then I apologize; I was just trying to show where consistency should be applied throughout.

    I leave this convo for another day.
    In that context, Tomlin IS the Harrison/ Woodley of coaches as they started in one SB victory and Lloyd/ Greene have not.

    Your logic is flawed.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    In that context, Tomlin IS the Harrison/ Woodley of coaches as they started in one SB victory and Lloyd/ Greene have not.

    Your logic is flawed.
    Well , we'll have to agree to disagree Cap because I really think you logic is flawed; IMO, you can't say that the difference in Woodley/Harrison is what they did in the playoffs, ...and then turn around and say Tomlin is great when his playoff record (without Cowher's players or coaches) since 2010 is abysmal.

    We'll agree to disagree on that one. But you and I generally agree on everything else.
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

    My official proclamation: WE WILL NOT WIN ANOTHER SUPER BOWL WITH MIKE TOMLIN AS OUR HEAD COACH. SO WHY DELAY THE INEVITABLE?

    FIRE MIKE TOMLIN

  3. #33
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    Well, stats are hard because they aren't apples to apples. It's a league that passes much more than it did during the tenure of Lloyd and Greene, almost rendering a #sacks during a season irrelevant.

    As an example of rushing vs passing, last year ( 2018 ), 1434 yards won the rushing title. 10 years ago, in 2008, that would have been good for 5th behind Adrian Peterson, Michael Turner, DeAngelo Williams and Clinton Portis.

    Point is, raw stats don't necessarily matter, as much as *opportunity*.

    I can tell you this: On 3rd and 15, and we need a stop, Greg Lloyd is my pass rushing OLB, above all other steelers, past and present. Deebo is probably my 2nd choice, but, i'd have to think on it... haha

    Having said that, I think Lloyd and Kevin Greene only had like 2 healthy seasons together - if that. Seemed exciting as hell, but, way to quick.

    *disclaimer: I haven't read a single post in this thread, but, felt compelled to share my thoughts. Sorry if i've duplicated/repeated other thoughts.
    2013 MNF Executive Champion!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    Cap, if your talking about his averaging 10 wins a season, I've acknowledged that. But again, our greatness is defined by what we do in the post season.

    The only point I was making is that YOU pointed out how Harrison and Woodley were money in postseason and that trumps anything Green/Lloyd accomplished. So, with that being said, it's the same in coaching as well.

    It is inconsistent to say that you can use playoff success to define Harrison & Woodley greatness but playoff success can't be used to define a coach's success.

    But if you feel I"ve hijacked the thread then I apologize; I was just trying to show where consistency should be applied throughout.

    I leave this convo for another day.
    There is a theme going on here. You attack Tomlin, there are members here who feel your attacks are based on the color of his skin. Can we just talk about this openly? I think Tomlin is a good coach, not a great coach personally. I think he fell into a good situation. I do feel a better coach could have done more with the crazy amount of talent. I think the lack of secondary development falls on his shoulders. I think the locker room bs falls on his shoulders. I think he could have done more to control the egos. None of this has to do with race. I don't give two ish if you are purple or pink...If you help the Steelers win...then I'm your fan. Period. So can we all grow up and just talk Steelers? Tomlin isn't a great coach. He is a good coach and like all good coaches he deserves criticism.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    There is a theme going on here. You attack Tomlin, there are members here who feel your attacks are based on the color of his skin.
    I cannot express how intensely I take issue with this Shawn.....especially from YOU as we have a long history here.
    Your criticism is about ME as I am the only one who is arguing with Maniac on THIS thread about THAT topic.

    I have NEVER said nor implied Maniacs criticisms are based on race.
    Frankly I do not for one minute believe they are based on race, I think he is a good guy.
    I DO believe for SOME it is a race thing.......not Maniac nor your criticisms below.

    You should know me better than that dude.

    Shawn you have been around long enough to remember I DID THE EXACT SAME THING DEFENDING COWHER against Crash FOR YEARS. He aint black.

    Can we just talk about this openly? I think Tomlin is a good coach, not a great coach personally.
    You stirring an argument with ME?
    That has ALWAYS been my POV. I have NEVER called him great. I have argued with Dizz that he AINT a "great" coach.

    I think the locker room bs falls on his shoulders. I think he could have done more to control the egos. None of this has to do with race. I don't give two ish if you are purple or pink...If you help the Steelers win...then I'm your fan. Period.
    Yeah, pay attention dude I have expressed THOSE SAME OPINIONS.

    So can we all grow up and just talk Steelers? Tomlin isn't a great coach. He is a good coach and like all good coaches he deserves criticism.
    Shawn, I brought in stats and records......is that not talking Steelers?

    YOU JUST INTERJECTED RACE INTO A FOOTBALL DEBATE BETWEEN FRIENDS.

    Just because someone defends Tomlin......YOU ASSUME he thinks any critic is racist?

    All criticism of Tomlin is NOT race motivated. I HAVE ENGAGED IN IT MYSELF.

    However, YOU need to understand that not every DEFENSE of his record race motivated either.

    Keep it football?????? I just did that dude.

    You on the other hand Shawn?

    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 07-06-2019 at 10:17 PM.

  6. #36
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    Example of my criticisms of Tomlin:
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    To absolve Tomlin of blame for the current state of the Steelers is ALSO ridiculous. He helped create the circus environment we see today by his pampering of elite talent. He created the monster AB is today. He DID overuse Bell (irony is Bell looks more "elite" than he is BECAUSE we overuse him with so many touches). The players blatant disrespect is terrible.

    Even Ben's comments are in part on Tomlin. Dude talkin like his picks dont matter? Publicly throwing teammates under the bus is "leadership".
    Who give Ben this mindset? Never mid Belichick, Bill Cowher sure aint going for that!
    Ben basically implied he does on the field and says whatever he wants.

    Bottom line:
    We have a borderline great QB that NEEDS to clean up the frequency of his mistakes.
    We have here a "good" not great coach who lost his way giving too much credit for players to be grownups.

    I feel like last season was a wakeup call for both.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    Well, stats are hard because they aren't apples to apples. It's a league that passes much more than it did during the tenure of Lloyd and Greene, almost rendering a #sacks during a season irrelevant.

    As an example of rushing vs passing, last year ( 2018 ), 1434 yards won the rushing title. 10 years ago, in 2008, that would have been good for 5th behind Adrian Peterson, Michael Turner, DeAngelo Williams and Clinton Portis.

    Point is, raw stats don't necessarily matter, as much as *opportunity*.

    I can tell you this: On 3rd and 15, and we need a stop, Greg Lloyd is my pass rushing OLB, above all other steelers, past and present. Deebo is probably my 2nd choice, but, i'd have to think on it... haha

    Having said that, I think Lloyd and Kevin Greene only had like 2 healthy seasons together - if that. Seemed exciting as hell, but, way to quick.

    *disclaimer: I haven't read a single post in this thread, but, felt compelled to share my thoughts. Sorry if i've duplicated/repeated other thoughts.
    It is obvious you havent read the thread.

    Nearly all your opinions were kind of destroyed.
    We are not discussing 2018.
    Compare the Lloyd/Greene years with the JH/Woodley years.

    Quote Originally Posted by RuthlessBurgher View Post
    Surprisingly enough...not really (if we go further back looking at the Steel Curtain era, then yeah). Completion percentage has gone way up since the mid-90's, but not necessarily raw passing attempt numbers.

    In 1993:
    NFL teams averaged 32.2 pass attempts per game.
    QB's were sacked an average of 2.4 times per game.

    In 1994:
    NFL teams averaged 33.6 pass attempts per game.
    QB's were sacked an average of 2.1 times per game.

    In 1995:
    NFL teams averaged 34.8 pass attempts per game.
    QB's were sacked an average of 2.2 times per game.



    In 2000:
    NFL teams averaged 32.9 pass attempts per game.
    QB's were sacked an average of 2.5 times per game.

    In 2001:
    NFL teams averaged 32.6 pass attempts per game.
    QB's were sacked an average of 2.4 times per game.

    In 2002:
    NFL teams averaged 33.8 pass attempts per game.
    QB's were sacked an average of 2.3 times per game.



    In 2008:
    NFL teams averaged 32.3 pass attempts per game.
    QB's were sacked an average of 2.0 times per game.

    In 2009:
    NFL teams averaged 33.3 pass attempts per game.
    QB's were sacked an average of 2.2 times per game.

    In 2010:
    NFL teams averaged 33.7 pass attempts per game.
    QB's were sacked an average of 2.2 times per game.

    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...FL/passing.htm

    Greg Lloyd if you needed a sack? You know the dude averaged like 7 sacks a healthy season right?
    People "remember" Lloyd as this pass rush beast because he had "highlight" sacks.

    He was great at stripping the ball, so often his sacks were huge plays. That is why we dont remember a single Gildon sack but we seem to recall EVERY SINGLE Lloyd sack.

    But he was THE LEAST CAPABLE pass rusher of our great 3/4 linebackers.

    But he simply was too small to take on linemen......his sacks occurred when he came clean, like a Farrior or Shazier sack when its not expected.

    Here is a stat. Lloyd had a grand total of 3 post season sacks.......IN HIS CAREER.
    JH did that in a game.....it took Woodley his second playoff game to get 4

    Woodley had more playoff sacks in 2008 ALONE than Lloyd AND Greene COMBINED in their Steeler career (not just in games together....Lloyds entire career plus Greenes Steeler years.)
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 07-06-2019 at 10:49 PM.

  8. #38
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    Chad Brown played ONE SEASON at outside linebacker for us, replacing Lloyd and had more sacks than Lloyd EVER had.

  9. #39
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    Cap, I just want to second what you said about race. None of my criticism of Tomlin is race related. I do understand that for some , it indeed was race related but I do t fall into that category.
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

    My official proclamation: WE WILL NOT WIN ANOTHER SUPER BOWL WITH MIKE TOMLIN AS OUR HEAD COACH. SO WHY DELAY THE INEVITABLE?

    FIRE MIKE TOMLIN

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    Cap, I just want to second what you said about race. None of my criticism of Tomlin is race related. I do understand that for some , it indeed was race related but I do t fall into that category.
    I'll second this, I have never seen you be racist in any way, shape or form. it's a shame you were unfairly criticized and attacked for it...

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