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Thread: Hargrave > Hampton?

  1. #41
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    Did some checking stats in Hampton era vs no-Hampton. Pretty clear the defensive rankings were better in the Hampton era. Worst rush ranking was something like 13th. ..though it's also clear the supporting cast behind the DL was superior to today. So team ranks are even more suspect than individual stats.
    Steelers had one very dismal defensive year recently.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh wow View Post
    But so does Hargrave, Heyward and Tuitt.

    How many sacks and pressures do you see when a team goes no huddle and completes a few passes?

    You don’t. Those guys are just as ineffective.

    If a team goes no huddle it’s primarily up to the DB’s to stop the offense.
    Yes, defenses still get sacks while the offense is in no-huddle. Maybe not as many, but sacks do occur.
    So, the often overweight, out of shape, gap plugging, run stuffing Big Snack is just as effective as Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt against the no huddle offense. I strongly disagree.
    No-huddle DOES NOT mean pass on every play. Hampton would be useless either way after 4 or 5 non-stop plays.
    In the days before no-huddle became popular and NFL teams ran the ball more than 60% instead of throwing more than 60% of the time, a NT like Casey that played at 6’1”, 350 lbs. (listed at 325 lbs.) was a great asset, not so much in today’s NFL.
    Last edited by STH70; 06-25-2019 at 01:28 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by STH70 View Post
    Yes, defenses still get sacks while the offense is in no-huddle. Maybe not as many, but sacks do occur.
    So, the often overweight, out of shape, gap plugging, run stuffing Big Snack is just as effective as Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt against the no huddle offense. I strongly disagree.
    No-huddle DOES NOT mean pass on every play. Hampton would be useless either way after 4 or 5 non-stop plays.
    In the days before no-huddle became popular and NFL teams ran the ball more than 60% instead of throwing more than 60% of the time, a NT like Casey that played at 6’1”, 350 lbs. (listed at 325 lbs.) was a great asset, not so much in today’s NFL.
    Dude, all defensive lineman are gasping for air after 4 to 5 no huddle plays.

    How many times did we watch Brady go untouched and our DL her no pressure. Even when they didn’t go no huddle?

    Atlanta was killing the Pats in the SB in the first half but once they went no huddle/uptempo the front 4 were useless all second half.

    I don’t think size has much to do with sucking wind when it comes to DL in the no huddle.
    Last edited by Oh wow; 06-25-2019 at 02:49 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh wow View Post
    Dude, all defensive lineman are gasping for air after 4 to 5 no huddle plays.

    How many times did we watch Brady go untouched and our DL her no pressure. Even when they didn’t go no huddle?

    Atlanta was killing the Pats in the SB in the first half but once they went no huddle/uptempo the front 4 were useless all second half.

    I don’t think size has much to do with sucking wind when it comes to DL in the no huddle.
    There’s a huge difference between sucking wind and exhaustion.
    You’re trying to compare a player that’s strictly a NT, much shorter and heavier than the others that also play DT and DE. Ever hear of Casey playing DE?
    You’re trying to tell us that a guy that can’t pass the run test, playing at 6’1”, 350 lbs. has the same stamina as DEs that are 6’5”, 288 lbs. and 6’7” 313?
    Come on Dude, that isn’t making much sense.
    There is no way Casey would have the stamina or effectiveness of Heyward, Hargrave or Tuitt in a no-huddle.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by STH70 View Post
    There’s a huge difference between sucking wind and exhaustion.
    You’re trying to compare a player that’s strictly a NT, much shorter and heavier than the others that also play DT and DE. Ever hear of Casey playing DE?
    You’re trying to tell us that a guy that can’t pass the run test, playing at 6’1”, 350 lbs. has the same stamina as DEs that are 6’5”, 288 lbs. and 6’7” 313?
    Come on Dude, that isn’t making much sense.
    There is no way Casey would have the stamina or effectiveness of Heyward, Hargrave or Tuitt in a no-huddle.
    No, I’m not saying a NT and a DE has the same stamina.

    Of course a NT will have to come off the field if a team goes no huddle.

    What I’m saying is the no huddle isn’t a good argument against a NT Casey’s size.

    Any team that runs 5 straight no huddle plays won’t have to worry about the DL unless the DB’s are blanketing WR’s and it’s a coverage sack.

    I think you aren’t being realistic about how winded DL are when a team runs successful no huddle plays.

    Unless it’s the first drive of the game... I don’t think Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt are getting to the QB who runs a no huddle after 5 plays.

    Also remember Casey’s job isn’t to get upfield. Just hold his ground and push the pocket a bit.

    How effective was the no huddle all those years with Casey?

    and why do you refer to Casey as the often overweight? He came into camp overweight one year and I honestly think it was Tomlin making him an example to establish his presence early in his HC career.
    Last edited by Oh wow; 06-25-2019 at 04:56 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh wow View Post
    No, I’m not saying a NT and a DE has the same stamina.

    Of course a NT will have to come off the field if a team goes no huddle.

    What I’m saying is the no huddle isn’t a good argument against a NT Casey’s size.

    Any team that runs 5 straight no huddle plays won’t have to worry about the DL unless the DB’s are blanketing WR’s and it’s a coverage sack.

    I think you aren’t being realistic about how winded DL are when a team runs successful no huddle plays.

    Unless it’s the first drive of the game... I don’t think Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt are getting to the QB who runs a no huddle after 5 plays.

    Also remember Casey’s job isn’t to get upfield. Just hold his ground and push the pocket a bit.

    How effective was the no huddle all those years with Casey?

    and why do you refer to Casey as the often overweight? He came into camp overweight one year and I honestly think it was Tomlin making him an example to establish his presence early in his HC career.
    You’re not getting it. There are many reasons a Casey Hampton type NT is not a priority.
    Playing against the no-huddle is an example and just a small part of the equation.
    Teams no longer run the ball 60% of the time. So, why make a run-stuffing only NT a priority?
    Teams throw the ball over 60% of the time. A 3-4 NT adds no value to the pass rush.
    Our defense values position flexibility (Hargrave = NT, DT, DE) Casey is a 3-4 NT ONLY.
    The entire defense is built around SPEED, of which Casey has none.
    And the list goes on and on.

    And BTW, Casey reported to camp overweight more than once and failed the run test under both Tomlin and Cowher.
    Last edited by STH70; 06-26-2019 at 08:12 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by STH70 View Post
    You’re not getting it. There are many reasons a Casey Hampton type NT is not a priority.
    Playing against the no-huddle is an example and just a small part of the equation.
    Teams no longer run the ball 60% of the time. So, why make a run-stuffing only NT a priority?
    Teams throw the ball over 60% of the time. A 3-4 NT adds no value to the pass rush.
    Our defense values position flexibility (Hargrave = NT, DT, DE) Casey is a 3-4 NT ONLY.
    The entire defense is built around SPEED, of which Casey has none.
    And the list goes on and on.

    And BTW, Casey reported to camp overweight more than once and failed the run test under both Tomlin and Cowher.
    We shall see if our D is better without a traditional NT. This far its been pretty average and down right terrible some years at generating pressure and stopping the run.

    A noseplug NT requires a double team, he doesn’t get sacks, he pushes the pocket and makes it hard for QB’s to step up in the pocket and also makes it easier for LB’s to blitz up the middle.

    We also watched NE run down teams throats when they were geared up to stop the pass.

    It’s not about making it a priority. It’s about having options and a noseplug NT doesn’t kill our pockets or destroy our scheme.

    We will have to disagree on this one. Until I see our defense dominate the trenches I won’t call our decision to go with speed a success. If anything, it’s been a failure thus far.
    Last edited by Oh wow; 06-26-2019 at 08:40 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh wow View Post
    We shall see if our D is better without a traditional NT. This far its been pretty average and down right terrible some years at generating pressure and stopping the run.

    A noseplug NT requires a double team, he doesn’t get sacks, he pushes the pocket and makes it hard for QB’s to step up in the pocket and also makes it easier for LB’s to blitz up the middle.

    We also watched NE run down teams throats when they were geared up to stop the pass.

    It’s not about making it a priority. It’s about having options and a noseplug NT doesn’t kill our pockets or destroy our scheme.

    We will have to disagree on this one. Until I see our defense dominate the trenches I won’t call our decision to go with speed a success. If anything, it’s been a failure thus far.
    Hey Oh wow, it’s all good.

    We do have 1 DL dedicated to playing only NT, Dan McCullers. Not very good in my opinion. Plays way too high and seems like he can’t locate the ball when he does penetrate. Probably why he doesn’t see the field more. Hopefully Isaiah Buggs shows enough to push him off the roster.

    You’re right. Looks like we’ll have to disagree on this one.
    But it’s just a good, healthy Steelers football discussion. I truly appreciate it.

    Go Steelers.

  9. #49
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    The point about teams no longer running the ball 60% of the time now is well taken.

    But what about our division specifically?

    Once Lamar Jackson took over the reins in Baltimore, the Ravens ran the ball more than any NFL team has in decades.

    Cleveland drafted Nick Chubb last year then signed Kareem Hunt this year. Plus although Mayfield only ran the ball 39 times for 131 yards total as a rookie, during his 4 year college career, he ran the ball more than 400 times for over 1000 yards and more than 20 TD's on the ground.

    In Cincy, I'd say Joe Mixon's legs are more of a weapon than Andy Dalton's arm. Plus they added a couple of depth RB's in this draft as well to keep him fresh (Texas A&M's Trayveon Williams and Oklahoma's Rodney Anderson).

    I'd say being able to stop the run effectively is a big part of winning our division, which is our first goal every season.
    Steeler teams featuring stat-driven, me-first, fantasy-football-darling diva types such as Antonio Brown & Le'Veon Bell won no championships.

    Super Bowl winning Steeler teams were built around a dynamic, in-your-face defense plus blue-collar, hard-hitting, no-nonsense football players on offense such as Hines Ward & Jerome Bettis.

    We don't want Juju & Conner to replace what we lost in Brown & Bell.

    We are counting on Juju & Conner to return us to the glory we once had with Hines & The Bus.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthlessBurgher View Post
    In Cincy, I'd say Joe Mixon's legs are more of a weapon than Andy Dalton's arm. Plus they added a couple of depth RB's in this draft as well to keep him fresh (Texas A&M's Trayveon Williams and Oklahoma's Rodney Anderson).
    MIxon's arm was pretty dangerous too... wait... nevermind...
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