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Thread: This Stat Will Determine If The Steelers Win Another Super Bowl

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    I'll answer your question while waiting for you to answer mine.

    Note that the answer probably depends a bit on what you mean by "philosophy".

    But, I think that the DC is be responsible for designing the D (building the playbook by designing schemes and plays, lead for game planning every week) and calling the vast majority of plays on game day (that's why he's the one with the chart).

    But, the HC is responsible for selecting the DC so they'd certainly influence the high level strategy. The HC is probably also responsible for calling / OKing decisions at critical points in the game. They probably also have high level input on game planning every week.

    In my view, someone like Jocko might say that the HC takes the lead on strategies while the DC takes the lead on tactics. I'd say that "philosophy" is probably the combination of strategy and tactics. Ideally the coaches have a good working relationship and they do these things together.

    I think it would be interesting if we could get game day audio from Tomlin / Butler to see how their communications go during the game. Maybe we can ask the Pats for it.

    Now that I've answered your question, I'll ask you again: Do you think dropped INTs are the fault of the HC and not execution failures by the players? If so, why?
    North, I answered this question before you entered into the discussion. But I'll reiterate it again;

    If you have the same head coach for years, and the defense is (accept for one year) always finishing poorly in turnovers, it's up to the head coach to consider the defensive philosophy could be wrong. Because is it a coincidence that over a number of years, it is always the players fault? All the time? And (again, like I said above) I have my reservation about Butler anyway. This is my answer. Maybe it's not to your satisfaction but this is my answer.
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron City Inc. View Post
    Good point it is a bit of an anomaly. We'll need the same rush with better play at the 2nd n 3rd levels to match up with playoff caliber teams. Camp n pre-season will tell us some things but we won't really know till the 2nd half of 19. At Latrobe I will be able to see if we have improved our team speed and that will be a factor
    in the turnover formula. If Nelson , Haden ,Hilton n Lane can be trusted in man under that scheme should allow us to pressure more on D n turnovers are more likely. We'll just have to see it before getting to optimistic.
    I think the art of the strip-sack needs to be worked on more and perfected. Looking for TJ to take another huge step forward. Don't think Dupree has ever had it, but would love for him to prove me wrong.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    I'll answer your question while waiting for you to answer mine.

    Note that the answer probably depends a bit on what you mean by "philosophy".

    But, I think that the DC is be responsible for designing the D (building the playbook by designing schemes and plays, lead for game planning every week) and calling the vast majority of plays on game day (that's why he's the one with the chart).

    But, the HC is responsible for selecting the DC so they'd certainly influence the high level strategy.
    I would think that if the Head Coach has a defensive resume (meaning defense is his forte) then he has more then just an "influence" on the high level defensive strategy. I've seen Parcells, Bellichek and Coughlin (for example)...all defensive specialist head coaches and they have more then just "influence" on the teams defense. It is THEIR defense. I can't think of one head coach with a defensive specialist pedigree (background) that didn't have HIS defense in; regardless of who the DC was.

    If the defense isn't creating turnovers over a number of years, how can it not be on the head coach to consider doing something different?
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

  4. #24
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    So, in 2005 Tomlin was a DB coach and is now to blame for dropped INTs as head coach 14 years later. Wow.
    And this thread sounds like our DBs were in the bottom 4th of the NFL for the past 5-6 straight years. I’d have to disagree.

    2018 – 8 INTs and #28 in the NFL, bottom 4th in INTs. They had 14 drops, so they were in position to make the plays.
    2017 - 16 INTs, and #10 in the NFL.
    2016 – 13 INTs and #15 (top half) in the NFL
    2015 – 17 INTs and #6 in the NFL
    2014 – 11 INTs and #25. Bottom 4th in INTs.

    As NB said, it’s the coaches job and philosophy that puts players in position to succeed, it’s up to the players to execute.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    North, I answered this question before you entered into the discussion. But I'll reiterate it again;

    If you have the same head coach for years, and the defense is (accept for one year) always finishing poorly in turnovers, it's up to the head coach to consider the defensive philosophy could be wrong. Because is it a coincidence that over a number of years, it is always the players fault? All the time? And (again, like I said above) I have my reservation about Butler anyway. This is my answer. Maybe it's not to your satisfaction but this is my answer.
    Do you know our dropped interception numbers from previous years? I don't. I actually don't even know the breakdown of the dropped INTs. I assume that they're mostly in the secondary, but if they're are significant drops in the LB group that might further reduce the confidence in your argument that "our HC should magically make the secondary catch better because he has coached secondary players before".

    The high number of dropped interceptions seems to suggest that scheme / play calling were OK, but players didn't execute.

    Without more information, I don't think you can get to your conclusion. And even if dropped ints were consistently high, I don't know how you separate out "bad talent in the secondary" from "poor position coaching / drills catching balls" from "HC somehow coaching players to drop balls".

    That's why I'm asking you this specific question (which you haven't actually answered).

    I'm asking this question: Do you think dropped INTs are the fault of the HC and not execution failures by the players? If so, why?

    You seem to be answering this question: Do you think the HC bears responsibility for consistently lower turnover numbers?

    That would be like if my answer to your question was: Colbert is the one that selects the players.

    That statement is true. But it doesn't answer the question you asked me.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by STH70 View Post
    So, in 2005 Tomlin was a DB coach and is now to blame for dropped INTs as head coach 14 years later. Wow.
    And this thread sounds like our DBs were in the bottom 4th of the NFL for the past 5-6 straight years. I’d have to disagree.

    2018 – 8 INTs and #28 in the NFL, bottom 4th in INTs. They had 14 drops, so they were in position to make the plays.
    2017 - 16 INTs, and #10 in the NFL.
    2016 – 13 INTs and #15 (top half) in the NFL
    2015 – 17 INTs and #6 in the NFL
    2014 – 11 INTs and #25. Bottom 4th in INTs.

    As NB said, it’s the coaches job and philosophy that puts players in position to succeed, it’s up to the players to execute.
    Thanks for looking up the stats STH70.

    Not all world, but in the top half of the league more often than not and in the top 10 2 out of 3 years. I'd imagine that's better than what we'd expect from pure chance. And probably also better than we'd expect given the talent level in our secondary.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    I'm saying (not implying) that the overall defensive philosophy is flawed and not only last year, but the over a 5-6 year period, we are always in the bottom 4th in turnovers.
    Am I missing something here? Here are some Steelers defensive turnover stats.

    2017 Ė 22 TO tie for #13
    2016 Ė 23 TO tie for #14
    2015 Ė 30 TO tie for #3

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    I would think that if the Head Coach has a defensive resume (meaning defense is his forte) then he has more then just an "influence" on the high level defensive strategy. I've seen Parcells, Bellichek and Coughlin (for example)...all defensive specialist head coaches and they have more then just "influence" on the teams defense. It is THEIR defense. I can't think of one head coach with a defensive specialist pedigree (background) that didn't have HIS defense in; regardless of who the DC was.

    If the defense isn't creating turnovers over a number of years, how can it not be on the head coach to consider doing something different?
    William Laird Cowher was hired to be the HC of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

    He was a ST coach, a Secondary Coach, and a DC under Marty's Browns. (Note that like Cowher, Tomlin has experience coaching in multiple phases of the game)

    As a HC, his defenses were designed by very good DCs that were known for putting together their own D's. Only one of them didn't go on to get a head coaching job because they put together very good D's:
    - Dom Capers (HC)
    - Dick LeBeau (HC)
    - Jim Haslett (HC)
    - Tim Lewis (only Cowher DC that didn't get a HC job)
    - Dick LeBeau again

    It's not surprising to me that the Steelers continue to try to run their team this way. I think comparisons to our own team make more sense than comparisons to other teams that run differently.
    Last edited by Northern_Blitz; 06-04-2019 at 03:17 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by STH70 View Post
    Am I missing something here? Here are some Steelers defensive turnover stats.

    2017 – 22 TO tie for #13
    2016 – 23 TO tie for #14
    2015 – 30 TO tie for #3
    Looks like it's not you that's missing things.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    Looks like it's not you that's missing things.
    no..

    Thats a small sample size. Again....

    Please look at what I originally said BEFORE you entered the conversation North. The 2015 numbers are great but I said " OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS" why don't you try the last 8 years all together instead of just cherry picking the years of your choice. I know all about the numbers; notice i said before you entered the discussion..." other then one year" ..so I'm not turning a blind eye to 2015.

    We've had these discussions over the years about how this defense doesn't create the turnovers we'd like. Last year was just indicative of what we've experienced for the most part from this defense for a number of years (I'll be specific going forward and say 8 years for this discussion)
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

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