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Thread: Tomlin Gets Help

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    And here's where you and I disagree. That is exactly what a head coach is suppose to do. All the great ones did just that; set the tone and the environment. You keep excusing Tomlin from duties that all the great ones did before him. Tomlin IS responsible for the environment; Tomlin IS responsible for what will or will not be tolerated. He's that guy..or he's suppose to be. And because he wasn't is why the atmosphere was conducive for AB and Bell to act the way they acted.
    I'd again point to Phil Jackson in the Kobe vs. Shaq situation. Sometimes all you can do as a coach is try to hold it together for as long as possible.

    We have no way of knowing if Tomlin's actions made things worse or if they prolonged the inevitable. We do know that there's really only one coach that's clearly better than he is over his tenure as a HC.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    And here's where you and I disagree. That is exactly what a head coach is suppose to do. All the great ones did just that; set the tone and the environment. You keep excusing Tomlin from duties that all the great ones did before him. Tomlin IS responsible for the environment; Tomlin IS responsible for what will or will not be tolerated. He's that guy..or he's suppose to be. And because he wasn't is why the atmosphere was conducive for AB and Bell to act the way they acted.
    You are the one who kept comparing AB to a Kanye West level whackjob, but now it's all Mike Tomlin's fault that he acted this way? AB wanted more guaranteed dollars, the Steelers wouldn't give him more guaranteed money so soon after re-signing him to a new deal, so he acted the fool to get the team to trade him to a team that would give him the guaranteed money he wanted (or release him so he could sign a big money guaranteed deal with some other team).

    As for Bell, he also wanted more guaranteed money than the Steelers were willing to pony up, so he just decided to withhold his services until the CBA mandated that he could finally negotiate freely with all 32 teams as opposed to just 1 team under the franchise tag.

    If Brown and Bell both played for Belichick instead of Tomlin, and both decided they wanted more guaranteed money than New England was willing to pay, what would have happened?

    If Brown and Rosenhaus concocted their scheme to badmouth his QB, go on Twitter rants, tie knots in his hair and bleach his moustache, etc., then Belichick would have likely decided that he was more trouble than he was worth, and traded him elsewhere, even if the return was below market value...it's better to get anything of value for him and be rid of him than to have his cancer affect the team.

    If Bell was given the franchise tag for a second time by New England and opted not to play that second year, then Belichick likely would have let him rot while accumulating $850K per week towards next year's cap and then received a 3rd round comp pick for him in the next draft.

    What do you think would have happened? Or since Maniac can't actually see what I write because of his petulant "ignore" nonsense, what do the rest of you think about how someone like Belichick would have responded to these two very different attempts to get more guaranteed money?
    Steeler teams featuring stat-driven, me-first, fantasy-football-darling diva types such as Antonio Brown & Le'Veon Bell won no championships.

    Super Bowl winning Steeler teams were built around a dynamic, in-your-face defense plus blue-collar, hard-hitting, no-nonsense football players on offense such as Hines Ward & Jerome Bettis.

    We don't want Juju & Conner to replace what we lost in Brown & Bell.

    We are counting on Juju & Conner to return us to the glory we once had with Hines & The Bus.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    I'd again point to Phil Jackson in the Kobe vs. Shaq situation. Sometimes all you can do as a coach is try to hold it together for as long as possible.

    We have no way of knowing if Tomlin's actions made things worse or if they prolonged the inevitable. We do know that there's really only one coach that's clearly better than he is over his tenure as a HC.
    I understand what your saying North but I disagree. Because of the great multiple winning Super Bowl coaches we've seen before Tomlin.

    In regards to his coaching, again, you conveniently leave out his post season continual flops. If your happy with 10 wins and getting bounced out the playoffs every year then that's fine. But we are organization who's history is defined by what we do in the post season..this new montra of being happy with just 10 regular season wins isn't consistent with what our claim of greatness is in the past.

    And, for all his regular season success, doesn't seem to be too impressive..because he's in his last year and I don't think he's getting an extension any time soon. So how impressed is Rooney?
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

    My official proclamation: WE WILL NOT WIN ANOTHER SUPER BOWL WITH MIKE TOMLIN AS OUR HEAD COACH. SO WHY DELAY THE INEVITABLE?

    FIRE MIKE TOMLIN

  4. #84
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    There are 12 HCís with more than 1 SB win.

    There is only one Steeler HC with more than 1 SB ring.

    You realize how short that list is when you think of all the head coaches over the years in all of football?

    SM, your expectations are unreasonable but expected as a Steeler fan. A lot of us are delusional because Noll won 4 in the 70ís.

    Weíve been to 8 SBís as a franchise but somehow fans expect it every year because we are the Steelers.

    Being delusional and having unrealistic expectations doesnít make you a better fan, just more annoying.

    and I get it, I expect us to have a shot every year but Iím not going to ignore whatís happening during games to blame the HC for are shortcomings every year.

    I donít think there is anything Tomlin has done the last few years that compromised our chances at a SB.

    If Tomlin doesnít get extended in August you can stick your chest out but until then itís the same old timeline we have always used. Itís silly to point out his contract situation until then.
    Last edited by Oh wow; 04-01-2019 at 05:02 PM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    I understand what your saying North but I disagree. Because of the great multiple winning Super Bowl coaches we've seen before Tomlin.

    In regards to his coaching, again, you conveniently leave out his post season continual flops. If your happy with 10 wins and getting bounced out the playoffs every year then that's fine. But we are organization who's history is defined by what we do in the post season..this new montra of being happy with just 10 regular season wins isn't consistent with what our claim of greatness is in the past.

    And, for all his regular season success, doesn't seem to be too impressive..because he's in his last year and I don't think he's getting an extension any time soon. So how impressed is Rooney?
    I think it's more important to evaluate the process than the results.

    I don't see how the process of replacing the coach will lead to better results for the team in this case. And I remain unconvinced by the arguments I've seen (though unlike some, I admit could certainly be wrong).

    Perhaps interestingly, I think we'd do better than we did last year if we changed the coach this off season. But, I also think that we'll do better under Tomlin next year than we did last year.

    I think last year we saw a bunch of probabilistic events falling on outcomes against us (e.g. bad calls, kicker imploding). I think some of these things will regress to the mean next year and we'll do better no matter who's behind the bench.

    I get that it's comforting to believe that you can just bring in the right strong man who can control everything and things will be OK. But I don't think real life works like that because too many things are driven by luck / probability rather than human control. I think the best we can do is trust that good processes yield good results more often than not and then try to optimize the process.
    Last edited by Northern_Blitz; 04-01-2019 at 05:11 PM.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh wow View Post
    There are 12 HC’s with more than 1 SB win.

    There is only one Steeler HC with more than 1 SB ring.

    You realize how short that list is when you think of all the head coaches over the years in all of football?

    SM, your expectations are unreasonable but expected as a Steeler fan. A lot of us are delusional because Noll won 4 in the 70’s.

    We’ve been to 8 SB’s as a franchise but somehow fans expect it every year because we are the Steelers.

    Being delusional and having unrealistic expectations doesn’t make you a better fan, just more annoying.

    and I get it, I expect us to have a shot every year but I’m not going to ignore what’s happening during games to blame the HC for are shortcomings every year.

    I don’t think there is anything Tomlin has done the last few years that compromised our chances at a SB.

    If Tomlin doesn’t get extended in August you can stick your chest out but until then it’s the same old timeline we have always used. It’s silly to point out his contract situation until then.
    Ow wow..

    Your expectations are dummied down and I understand that. But a coach who continually goes to the playoffs and gets bounced isn't acceptable for those who have lived a longer Steeler history. Your being satisfied with only Dog food instead of Stake with your down trodden expectations doesn't make YOU a better fan but it is disappointing to say the least.

    I'm glad that your happy with Tomlin. But I forsee change in the wind in regards to our head coach after this coming season. And Tomlin not getting an extension is again a sign of dissatisfaction; weather you want to embrace it or not. I said and I'll say it again that if Rooney chooses to give him an extension in August , then that is a sign of satisfaction.

    Just like last year in Baltimore, where we all knew that Harbaugh was on the hot seat because he had no extension and was literally playing his last year for a future contract, Tomlin is in that same exact situation but you want to say it's not true is clear , unadulterated deniel.

    The agitation you show towards me in saying " stick my chest out" shouldn't be thrown towards me; I'm not the one leaving Tomlin out their twisting in the wind with his future on the line this last season. Take it up with Rooney/Colbert. All the accolades you throw down on Tomlin; yet, he's left twisting in the wind with no extension. The actions of management don't match up (right now ) to what your professing.

    Stop being mad at the messenger.
    Last edited by Steel Maniac; 04-01-2019 at 06:39 PM.
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

    My official proclamation: WE WILL NOT WIN ANOTHER SUPER BOWL WITH MIKE TOMLIN AS OUR HEAD COACH. SO WHY DELAY THE INEVITABLE?

    FIRE MIKE TOMLIN

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    hmmm..I'm not too sure on that North. There can be made an argument that because of the environment that Tomlin has fostered lead to AB being out of hand and lead to Bell thinking he's better then what he was. Environment is created by the coach.

    If your referring to the player upgrades needed on defense, well, we hired Tomlin as a secondary expert and the secondary hasn't been anything. So isn't that kinda on him? It can be argued that all the problems stem from him not being who he said he was (secondary expert; defensive coach)
    One player who wanted more money and another that appears to be a headcase isn't indicative of the overall environment of the team. 98 percent of the players appear to be on good behavior. It's a much stronger argument that the environment or culture of the team has been mostly positive under Tomlin. Every now and then every team has players that run off the reservation for different reasons. Welcome to the real world of sports.

    It's been more than 10 years that Tomlin's been with the team. Why do you continue to harp on the secondary thingy? It really doesn't make any sense. Especially considering that Tomlin wasn't hired as a secondary expert. He was hired because the organization believed he was a good candidate to become a HC. The people that run organization were correct in that assessment of Tomlin.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by BURGH86STEEL View Post
    One player who wanted more money and another that appears to be a headcase isn't indicative of the overall environment of the team. 98 percent of the players appear to be on good behavior. It's a much stronger argument that the environment or culture of the team has been mostly positive under Tomlin. Every now and then every team has players that run off the reservation for different reasons. Welcome to the real world of sports.

    It's been more than 10 years that Tomlin's been with the team. Why do you continue to harp on the secondary thingy? It really doesn't make any sense. Especially considering that Tomlin wasn't hired as a secondary expert. He was hired because the organization believed he was a good candidate to become a HC. The people that run organization were correct in that assessment of Tomlin.
    If a head coach is hired, his field of expertise is one area of the team that should excel. Sean Payton’s expertise was offense; Andy reid’s was qb’s and offense; Hoody’s was defense. So on and so forth. It makes absolutely perfect sense thst if I hire Tomlin as a head coach, based on his field of expertise coming into that position , the secondary should not ALWAYS be the weakest area of the team.
    From the 2010-2018 season, (An 8 year period that the majority of Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

    My official proclamation: WE WILL NOT WIN ANOTHER SUPER BOWL WITH MIKE TOMLIN AS OUR HEAD COACH. SO WHY DELAY THE INEVITABLE?

    FIRE MIKE TOMLIN

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    If a head coach is hired, his field of expertise is one area of the team that should excel. Sean Payton’s expertise was offense; Andy reid’s was qb’s and offense; Hoody’s was defense. So on and so forth. It makes absolutely perfect sense thst if I hire Tomlin as a head coach, based on his field of expertise coming into that position , the secondary should not ALWAYS be the weakest area of the team.
    First, it wasn't ALWAYS the weakest area. Do you remember the O-line we had 10 years ago?? We could look at Denver and say, geez, the "so-called QB expert" Elway sucks because he couldn't find a suitable replacement since Manning.

    At the end of the day, this is probably a better conversation for August. It seems to me that would be the time to start talking about Tomlins extension or lack thereof.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthlessBurgher View Post
    what do the rest of you think about how someone like Belichick would have responded to these two very different attempts to get more guaranteed money?
    Belichick, wearing his GM hat, typically doesn't spend a lot of money on RBs or WRs. The closest analogue to Antonio Brown would be Rob Gronkowski.

    Both players were drafted in the same year, and both became among the very best at their position. And, they both had the same agent (Rosenhaus).

    Belichick extended Gronk's contract early in his career, and the Pats continually adjusted his remuneration, via extension and incentives, to try to keep him happy. This seemed to work for Gronk. Obviously this technique can be part of the contract negotiations repertoire of any agent/player, but it requires a GM on one side of the table who is willing to work with the agent to keep the player happy and an agent on the other side who can work with the GM to keep the contract manageable w.r.t. the salary cap.

    The nearest equivalent to the Bell situation in Belichick's tenure with the Pats would be Logan Mankins, I think. He sat out for the first eight games one season, then came back after Belichick refused to budge on his contract demands. He was tagged for the subsequent two years, and then traded to Tampa Bay for a fourth round pick that was used to draft Trey Flowers. The Patriots also received, as part of the trade, a tight end afflicted with "looks like Tarzan plays like Jane" syndrome.

    Obviously a guard is not the same as a running back, but Mankins was a perennial Pro Bowler and one of the top guards in the league throughout his career. I don't think his hold out was a big factor in the trade - it was just that his salary was too high for his level of play, and Belichick shipped him out while he still had trade value.

    I don't think that the Steelers handled the Bell and Brown situations all that differently than Belichick would have. Probably the biggest difference is that the Steelers held onto each player longer than I think Belichick would have. Belichick would rather get rid of player a year too early than a year too late.
    Last edited by tiproast; 04-01-2019 at 08:40 PM.

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