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Thread: The Ruthless Plan 1.0

  1. #1
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    The Ruthless Plan 1.0

    Okay, now we know the plans are to try to trade AB. While I'd like to be able to use him as ammunition to be able to move up from #20 into the top 10 to get LSU LB Devin White, that's pretty much a pipe dream at this point. Since AB seems to be sabotaging his value on Twitter these days, I would be happy if we were able to get an early second round pick for him (say the Niners' pick at #36 overall).

    We also learned this week that the team will not be using any tags on Le'Veon Bell, so he's free to sign anywhere, and the maximum compensation we could possibly get for him would be a 2020 third round comp pick. However, if we are aggressive in free agency and use our cap space to add a big money defender on day one, we would essentially be cancelling out the possible 3rd round comp for Bell next year (that's why I suggested pursuing a CB2 like Robert Alford who was recently cut by the Falcons, since players who are released do not count against the free agent comp pick formula...but Arizona already signed him, so that's a moot point now anyway). I'm not thrilled with the quality of the free agent CB's this year anyway, and I expect Baltimore to be able to franchise tag C.J. Mosley after trading away Flacco's contract, so I'm still looking for another way to use our resources to improve on defense.

    Folks here have been mentioning Xavier Rhodes as a possibility recently. I like it. However, the Vikings aren't going to release him and he's not being traded for a mid-round pick. He's been to the Pro Bowl multiple times and was first team All Pro as recently as 2017. That's the kind of guy they might be looking for a first round pick...or maybe multiple second day picks to obtain. I love the idea of being able to team up Rhodes opposite Haden. That would be like having two CB1's, and by far better than anything we've had in our secondary for a long time. Well, what do we have to give in order to make it happen?

    I would offer Minnesota our 2nd round pick this year (52nd overall) and our 3rd round pick in 2020 plus CB Artie Burns in exchange from CB Xavier Rhodes and WR Laquon Treadwell. We can afford to give up our current pick in the latter half of round 2 now if we think we'd be able to obtain a pick in the early portion of round 2 for AB. And we could afford to give up our regular 2020 3rd round pick now if we expect to get a 2020 3rd round comp pick for Bell (and since we'd be spending the majority of our available cap dollars on a big trade rather than a big free agent signing, we wouldn't have to worry about that potential 3rd round comp pick being cancelled out next year).

    Burns and Treadwell both have been disappointing 1st round picks 3 seasons into their NFL careers, so perhaps a change of scenery could do them both some good. Minnesota would be losing their top corner in this deal, but adding Burns could replenish some of their depth behind remaining CB's Trae Waynes, Mike Hughes, and Mackenzie Alexander. Treadwell wasn't getting much playing time with the Vikes behind the likes of Adam Thielen and Stefan Diggs, but in Pittsburgh he could compete with James Washington and possibly a mid-level free agent signing or mid-round draft pick at WR opposite of Juju Smith-Schuster.

    Although he is only 1 year younger than Haden (XR is 28 and JH is 29), Haden has now been in the league for 9 years while Rhodes has been in the league for only 6 years so far, so Rhodes should have more tread on his tires in a relative sense (Haden was relatively young when he was drafted, and Rhodes was comparatively older). Haden is due to have a cap hit of $11.9M in the last year of his deal (I would like to try to also extend Haden's deal for a few more years as well this offseason). Rhodes is signed for 4 more years at similar base salaries to what we've been paying Haden (he's scheduled to make $10.4M in 2019, $9.9M in 2020, $11.15M in 2021, and $13.25M in 2022). The remainder of his prorating signing bonus would be on Minnesota's cap, so we'd only be responsible for those yearly base salaries mentioned above, plus I believe a roster bonus each year of $500K and a workout bonus of $100K, which would only inflate his yearly cap hits to $11M in 2019, $10.5M in 2020, $11.75M in 2021, and $13.85M in 2022). Seems like it would be a better overall allocation of resources to pay a top CB still in the midst of his prime years than a similarly aged RB or WR like Bell or Brown.

    And then...in the draft:

    1.20 Iowa TE T.J. Hockenson

    Potentially one of the best all around TE prospects to come out in the draft since our own Heath Miller. Hockenson worked well in 2TE sets at Iowa with teammate Noah Fant (who might be a 2nd round pick in this draft in his own right), so he should be able to work well with Vance McDonald. We could easily use more 2TE sets this coming year as opposed to the 3+WR we seemed to prefer this past year, and since Hockenson, McDonald, and Juju are all accomplished blockers as well as receivers, we can keep opponents guessing about whether a run or a pass might be coming next rather than telegraphing our play selection based on formation.

    2.36 (from SF for AB) Alabama ILB Mack Wilson

    He's not Ryan Shazier, but no one is. I think he's more of a borderline round 1-2 prospect than a bona fide mid 1st round guy at this point. He is an improvement over the likes of Vince Williams, Jon Bostic, L.J. Fort, and Tyler Matakevich, though. If he does not make it down to #36, though, there could be some other potential options here, such as Devin Bush instead.

    3.83 Michigan OLB Chase Winovich

    An upgrade over Anthony Chickillo who could also push Bud Dupree for playing time as well. And the fact that he grew up in Allegheny County never hurt when our front office is scouting players.

    4. Georgia RB Elijah Holyfield

    A replacement for Stefan Ridley. Didn't get much of a shot for most of his college career because of the presence of guys like Nick Chubb and Sony Michel ahead of him on the depth chart, but this year he was able to showcase his violent running style, which is not surprising considering who his father is (our front office also tends to like guys with strong athletic bloodlines as well).

    6. (from OAK) Utah FS Marquis Blair

    Depth behind Sean Davis. A hard hitter in spite of a small frame...could be something once he gets in a pro weight program and adds some pounds.

    6. Arkansas G Hjalte Froholdt

    Interior OL depth. Comes from Denmark with very little experience playing OL, but seems to have the skill set to turn into something if given the time. I would feel better if it were Mike Munchak shaping this lump of clay into a potential player, but we'll see how much of his magic touch rubbed off on protégé Shaun Sarrett.

    7. (from TB) Arkansas DE Armon Watts

    Depth along the d-line. Only a one year starter in college, but has the frame we tend to look for in our d-linemen and seems to have the functional strength to anchor against double teams and potentially beat single blockers.
    Trade 1.20, 2.52, & 2020 3rd for 1.8 or 1.9

    1.8 or 1.9 ILB Devin White
    3.66 OLB Chase Winovich
    3.83 S Amani Hooker
    4.122 TE Dawson Knox
    5.141 CB Kris Boyd
    6.175 WR Keelan Doss
    6.192 G Beau Benzschawel
    6.207 RB Kerrith Whyte
    7.219 DE Armon Watts

    or

    1.20 CB Byron Murphy
    2.52 OLB D'Andre Walker
    3.66 S Darnell Savage
    3.83 WR Miles Boykin
    4.122 ILB David Long
    5.141 C/G Ross Pierschbacher
    6.175 TE Kahele Warring
    6.192 NT Daylon Mack
    6.207 RB Devine Ozigbo
    7.219 DE Albert Huggins

  2. #2
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    RUTHLESS I WAS GETTING WOOD READING THIS!

    Is this really possible...having 2 solid CB?



    Especially reading your mock draft...

    I have been Hockenson ever since I realized that White would be long gone... He would add so much to this team and not just the offense. More value than the best WR in draft could offer to us. Like you said, he would bring a more balance base set in the O. We can spread out McDonald or spread out Hockenson, two TE sets gallore mismatches left and right. Imagine his blocking, running downhill football with Conner. We would eat up the clock for ever. Our D would be fresh...

    Add in a cover ILB, a former safety, the weak link in our D should be solved.

    Could we also throw Burnet and Gilbert in a trade to washington for Ha-HA.
    Last edited by steeler_george; 02-21-2019 at 05:08 PM. Reason: flow
    “I’m so tired of Le’Veon," DeCastro told reporters (h/t ESPN's Jeremy Fowler ([url]https://twitter.com/JFowlerESPN/status/1038909446146203649[/url])) after Sunday's game. "I’m so tired of it. Let’s just worry about the guys in here. I know you guys have stories to write and what not. I love Le’Veon, but we gotta worry about the guys in here. They’re the only people that matter to me."



  3. #3
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    Solid effort and very plausible. I'd be very happy with all of that!
    1/20-D.Bush-LB-Mich OR B.Murphy-CB-Washington
    2/52-Rock Ya Sin-CB-Temple OR J. Ferguson-OLB-LA Tech
    3/66-C. Winovich-OLB-Mich OR G. Pratt-ILB-NC St.
    3/84-D. Henderson-RB-Memphis
    4/123-D. Sills-WR-WVU
    5/142-Kahale Waring-TE-SDSU
    6/176-Will Harris-S-BC
    6/194-B. Powers-OG-Oklahoma
    6/209-Jon Ledbetter-DE-Georgia
    7/221-J. Bailey-P-Stanford




  4. #4
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    Somewhat Realistic but I'm getting more than a 2nd round pick from the Niners - I want their 2nd and their 5th.

    RUTH - lets say the Rhodes trade doesn't come to fruition who is our pick mid 2nd round??
    You can edit and throw it in above with an ***
    Here We Go Steelers, Here We Go...
    Here We Go Steelers, Here We Go...
    Here We Go Steelers, Here We Go...!!!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SidSmythe View Post
    Somewhat Realistic but I'm getting more than a 2nd round pick from the Niners - I want their 2nd and their 5th.

    RUTH - lets say the Rhodes trade doesn't come to fruition who is our pick mid 2nd round??
    You can edit and throw it in above with an ***
    Probably a corner there, unless we otherwise fill that slot in free agency. I imagine that Baker from Georgia, Murphy from Washington, and Greedy from LSU would all be off the board before pick 52. Probably someone from that next tier of corners, such as Rock Ya-Sin from Temple, Trayvon Mullen from Clemson, or Amani Oruwariye from Penn State. We'll have to wait for Combine shuttle runs and 3 cone drills to see who separates themselves from the pack.

    If we do get a CB via trade or free agency, we could also go OL Cody Ford in round 1, ILB Wilson or Bush in the early 2nd, and then TE Noah Fant or Irv Smith at 52.
    Trade 1.20, 2.52, & 2020 3rd for 1.8 or 1.9

    1.8 or 1.9 ILB Devin White
    3.66 OLB Chase Winovich
    3.83 S Amani Hooker
    4.122 TE Dawson Knox
    5.141 CB Kris Boyd
    6.175 WR Keelan Doss
    6.192 G Beau Benzschawel
    6.207 RB Kerrith Whyte
    7.219 DE Armon Watts

    or

    1.20 CB Byron Murphy
    2.52 OLB D'Andre Walker
    3.66 S Darnell Savage
    3.83 WR Miles Boykin
    4.122 ILB David Long
    5.141 C/G Ross Pierschbacher
    6.175 TE Kahele Warring
    6.192 NT Daylon Mack
    6.207 RB Devine Ozigbo
    7.219 DE Albert Huggins

  6. #6
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    Ruth, what is your observation on Bush as a player?
    From the 2010-2018 season, (8 years after Cowher's players & coaches had left) Mike Tomlin has only won 3 playoff games. And two of those wins were against back up Quarterbacks. Our history has been defined by what we do in the postseason; not the regular season.

  7. #7
    Legend

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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthlessBurgher View Post
    Okay, now we know the plans are to try to trade AB. While I'd like to be able to use him as ammunition to be able to move up from #20 into the top 10 to get LSU LB Devin White, that's pretty much a pipe dream at this point. Since AB seems to be sabotaging his value on Twitter these days, I would be happy if we were able to get an early second round pick for him (say the Niners' pick at #36 overall).

    We also learned this week that the team will not be using any tags on Le'Veon Bell, so he's free to sign anywhere, and the maximum compensation we could possibly get for him would be a 2020 third round comp pick. However, if we are aggressive in free agency and use our cap space to add a big money defender on day one, we would essentially be cancelling out the possible 3rd round comp for Bell next year (that's why I suggested pursuing a CB2 like Robert Alford who was recently cut by the Falcons, since players who are released do not count against the free agent comp pick formula...but Arizona already signed him, so that's a moot point now anyway). I'm not thrilled with the quality of the free agent CB's this year anyway, and I expect Baltimore to be able to franchise tag C.J. Mosley after trading away Flacco's contract, so I'm still looking for another way to use our resources to improve on defense.

    Folks here have been mentioning Xavier Rhodes as a possibility recently. I like it. However, the Vikings aren't going to release him and he's not being traded for a mid-round pick. He's been to the Pro Bowl multiple times and was first team All Pro as recently as 2017. That's the kind of guy they might be looking for a first round pick...or maybe multiple second day picks to obtain. I love the idea of being able to team up Rhodes opposite Haden. That would be like having two CB1's, and by far better than anything we've had in our secondary for a long time. Well, what do we have to give in order to make it happen?

    I would offer Minnesota our 2nd round pick this year (52nd overall) and our 3rd round pick in 2020 plus CB Artie Burns in exchange from CB Xavier Rhodes and WR Laquon Treadwell. We can afford to give up our current pick in the latter half of round 2 now if we think we'd be able to obtain a pick in the early portion of round 2 for AB. And we could afford to give up our regular 2020 3rd round pick now if we expect to get a 2020 3rd round comp pick for Bell (and since we'd be spending the majority of our available cap dollars on a big trade rather than a big free agent signing, we wouldn't have to worry about that potential 3rd round comp pick being cancelled out next year).

    Burns and Treadwell both have been disappointing 1st round picks 3 seasons into their NFL careers, so perhaps a change of scenery could do them both some good. Minnesota would be losing their top corner in this deal, but adding Burns could replenish some of their depth behind remaining CB's Trae Waynes, Mike Hughes, and Mackenzie Alexander. Treadwell wasn't getting much playing time with the Vikes behind the likes of Adam Thielen and Stefan Diggs, but in Pittsburgh he could compete with James Washington and possibly a mid-level free agent signing or mid-round draft pick at WR opposite of Juju Smith-Schuster.

    Although he is only 1 year younger than Haden (XR is 28 and JH is 29), Haden has now been in the league for 9 years while Rhodes has been in the league for only 6 years so far, so Rhodes should have more tread on his tires in a relative sense (Haden was relatively young when he was drafted, and Rhodes was comparatively older). Haden is due to have a cap hit of $11.9M in the last year of his deal (I would like to try to also extend Haden's deal for a few more years as well this offseason). Rhodes is signed for 4 more years at similar base salaries to what we've been paying Haden (he's scheduled to make $10.4M in 2019, $9.9M in 2020, $11.15M in 2021, and $13.25M in 2022). The remainder of his prorating signing bonus would be on Minnesota's cap, so we'd only be responsible for those yearly base salaries mentioned above, plus I believe a roster bonus each year of $500K and a workout bonus of $100K, which would only inflate his yearly cap hits to $11M in 2019, $10.5M in 2020, $11.75M in 2021, and $13.85M in 2022). Seems like it would be a better overall allocation of resources to pay a top CB still in the midst of his prime years than a similarly aged RB or WR like Bell or Brown.

    And then...in the draft:

    1.20 Iowa TE T.J. Hockenson

    Potentially one of the best all around TE prospects to come out in the draft since our own Heath Miller. Hockenson worked well in 2TE sets at Iowa with teammate Noah Fant (who might be a 2nd round pick in this draft in his own right), so he should be able to work well with Vance McDonald. We could easily use more 2TE sets this coming year as opposed to the 3+WR we seemed to prefer this past year, and since Hockenson, McDonald, and Juju are all accomplished blockers as well as receivers, we can keep opponents guessing about whether a run or a pass might be coming next rather than telegraphing our play selection based on formation.

    2.36 (from SF for AB) Alabama ILB Mack Wilson

    He's not Ryan Shazier, but no one is. I think he's more of a borderline round 1-2 prospect than a bona fide mid 1st round guy at this point. He is an improvement over the likes of Vince Williams, Jon Bostic, L.J. Fort, and Tyler Matakevich, though. If he does not make it down to #36, though, there could be some other potential options here, such as Devin Bush instead.

    3.83 Michigan OLB Chase Winovich

    An upgrade over Anthony Chickillo who could also push Bud Dupree for playing time as well. And the fact that he grew up in Allegheny County never hurt when our front office is scouting players.

    4. Georgia RB Elijah Holyfield

    A replacement for Stefan Ridley. Didn't get much of a shot for most of his college career because of the presence of guys like Nick Chubb and Sony Michel ahead of him on the depth chart, but this year he was able to showcase his violent running style, which is not surprising considering who his father is (our front office also tends to like guys with strong athletic bloodlines as well).

    6. (from OAK) Utah FS Marquis Blair

    Depth behind Sean Davis. A hard hitter in spite of a small frame...could be something once he gets in a pro weight program and adds some pounds.

    6. Arkansas G Hjalte Froholdt

    Interior OL depth. Comes from Denmark with very little experience playing OL, but seems to have the skill set to turn into something if given the time. I would feel better if it were Mike Munchak shaping this lump of clay into a potential player, but we'll see how much of his magic touch rubbed off on protégé Shaun Sarrett.

    7. (from TB) Arkansas DE Armon Watts

    Depth along the d-line. Only a one year starter in college, but has the frame we tend to look for in our d-linemen and seems to have the functional strength to anchor against double teams and potentially beat single blockers.
    Dude ain’t you supposed to be working or something? Lol nice read thanks for sharing

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  8. #8
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    nice work Ruthless!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Maniac View Post
    Ruth, what is your observation on Bush as a player?
    I see Bush vs. Wilson as somewhat similar to Shazier vs. Mosley a few years ago. I'd say that Bush might have a higher ceiling than Wilson, but also a lower floor as well (greater bust potential). Wilson is more of a what-you-see-is-what-you-get type of guy. I liked Shazier more than Mosley back then because he had otherworldly athleticism in a solid LB's body. The reason that I'm leaning the other way this time (Wilson over Bush right now) is because when you have an undersized guy like Bush, you want to see that elite level athleticism to make up for it, but he's not in Shazier's league. I see him more like a Deone Buchanon or Mark Barron type. Very useful in today's NFL, but not the complete package entirely. If Wilson were gone at 36, though, I'd take a swing at Bush and try to use him creatively. He could be what we wanted LJ Fort to be.
    Trade 1.20, 2.52, & 2020 3rd for 1.8 or 1.9

    1.8 or 1.9 ILB Devin White
    3.66 OLB Chase Winovich
    3.83 S Amani Hooker
    4.122 TE Dawson Knox
    5.141 CB Kris Boyd
    6.175 WR Keelan Doss
    6.192 G Beau Benzschawel
    6.207 RB Kerrith Whyte
    7.219 DE Armon Watts

    or

    1.20 CB Byron Murphy
    2.52 OLB D'Andre Walker
    3.66 S Darnell Savage
    3.83 WR Miles Boykin
    4.122 ILB David Long
    5.141 C/G Ross Pierschbacher
    6.175 TE Kahele Warring
    6.192 NT Daylon Mack
    6.207 RB Devine Ozigbo
    7.219 DE Albert Huggins

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthlessBurgher View Post
    I see Bush vs. Wilson as somewhat similar to Shazier vs. Mosley a few years ago. I'd say that Bush might have a higher ceiling than Wilson, but also a lower floor as well (greater bust potential). Wilson is more of a what-you-see-is-what-you-get type of guy. I liked Shazier more than Mosley back then because he had otherworldly athleticism in a solid LB's body. The reason that I'm leaning the other way this time (Wilson over Bush right now) is because when you have an undersized guy like Bush, you want to see that elite level athleticism to make up for it, but he's not in Shazier's league. I see him more like a Deone Buchanon or Mark Barron type. Very useful in today's NFL, but not the complete package entirely. If Wilson were gone at 36, though, I'd take a swing at Bush and try to use him creatively. He could be what we wanted LJ Fort to be.
    Thanks Ruth.

    I'm always very grateful for the insight on prospects we get around here.

    Not sure how you guys make the time, but I'm glad you do.

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