Shazier vid (with dope music, so crank it up)

[steelz09]

Coming from the guy that told me to "stop reading NFL.com" to form my draft opinions, the best thing you could offer was Matt Millen and Bucky brooks opinions lol

Yes, I did.... You posted combine stats to back up Shazier weight but you failed to mention (as NFL.com does) that Shazier did not play at that weight. He played close to 20 pounds lighter.

I'm referencing quotes from former NFL FO personnel that completely disagree with you on Bowman vs Wiilis. Don't get mad that your wrong. If you think Willis is the better player then that is cool. All I said is that an argument could be made that Bowman is just as good if not better than Willis. It could be Bowman is 3.5 years younger.

There is plenty of evidence out there that supports what I said. Don't cry... dry your eye

[K Train]

I also posted shaziers TFL stats...more than any MLB currently in the NFL had at the college level...willis, kuechley, bowman, timmons, beason, burfict, washington,....ect. 17 and 24 TFL wasnt even close to being matched by any of those guys. He winds up and shoots the gap as good as any linebacker. Shazier and Timmons on inside cross blitzes are going to be a thing of beauty. His 70 solo tackles were more than any OSU defender in 10 years, more than willis ever had and the same amount kuechley had as a senior.

His combine numbers are incredibly impressive, but his production speaks for itself without the gaudy times and distances

You never said one thing that bowman does better than willis, you just read that he might be better on the internet and ran with it.

[steelz09]

I also posted shaziers TFL stats...more than any MLB currently in the NFL had at the college level...willis, kuechley, bowman, timmons, beason, burfict, washington,....ect. 17 and 24 TFL wasnt even close to being matched by any of those guys. He winds up and shoots the gap as good as any linebacker. Shazier and Timmons on inside cross blitzes are going to be a thing of beauty. His 70 solo tackles were more than any OSU defender in 10 years, more than willis ever had and the same amount kuechley had as a senior.

His combine numbers are incredibly impressive, but his production speaks for itself without the gaudy times and distances

You never said one thing that bowman does better than willis, you just read that he might be better on the internet and ran with it.

Actually, I provided evidence from NFL FO personnel who think that Bowman has surpassed Willis. You provided nothing except opinion. Nothing else.

If you want stats, you can see that Bowman has exceeded Willis' in almost every category since he became a full time starter in 2011. Starting in 2011, he has had more tackles, and tackles for loss, sacks and equal in interceptions. So, stats prove you wrong.... and NFL Front Office personnel have proved you wrong. So, what else do you want? Ok, you want my personal opinion about what he does better....

I think Bowman is more powerful at the point of attack. He can stack and shed and is outstanding on fighting thru blocks. He think he might have slightly read & react skills (his vision). He's a great tackler (as is Willis). I think Bowman is definitely a more explosive/violent/powerful hitter. I do think Willis has him beat on pure athleticism. Both are great players but to say Willis is better in every aspect is wrong especially when there is evidence at every level that proves otherwise.

[K Train]

Actually, I provided evidence from NFL FO personnel who think that Bowman has surpassed Willis. You provided nothing except opinion. Nothing else.

If you want stats, you can see that Bowman has exceeded Willis' in almost every category since he became a full time starter in 2011. Starting in 2011, he has had more tackles, and tackles for loss, sacks and equal in interceptions. So, stats prove you wrong.... and NFL Front Office personnel have proved you wrong. So, what else do you want? Ok, you want my personal opinion about what he does better....

I think Bowman has heavier hands, can stack and shed better and might have slighter better vision as indicated by his stellar TFL #'s. He's a great tackler (as is Willis). I think Bowman is definitely a more explosive/violent/powerful hitter. I do think Willis has him beat on pure athleticism. Both are great players but to say Willis is better in every aspect is wrong especially when there is evidence at every level that proves otherwise.

Thats more along the lines of what i was looking for....as opposed to matt millen and bucky brooks

I think the problem with evaluating them is we are looking at them as if both ILBs positions are the same. Bowman was an OLB in penn states 43 and has shown tremendous coverage ability and ability to shoot the gaps from his position (which can be debated, but imo he lines up much more like an "elephant LB" or "leo" as opposed to just your typical Buck LB in a 34, he doesnt rush the passer as much as an ELB would though)...obiously the elephant role is for a 43 with an undersized DE playing LB. But when you watch bowman play he is typically playing that position but dropping into coverage far more and playing contain on the run. I think Fangio calls his MLBs a Jack and Mike, I just use Mack and Buck for simplicity, but I THINK the jack is essentially playing like a 43 SAM. Vic Fangio went to ESU ive heard him do some coaching/lectures since i am from that area

Meanwhile Willis has largely been used an a more traditional Mike in recent years. This is due to how creative theyve been able to get with stuns in their pass rush and how well justin smith holds up on the line. Aldon Smith does two things well, he rushes the passer and drinks. But now they have an influx of youth with Aaron Lynch and Corey Lemonier to work in the rotation with Ahmad Brooks. Willis' role in all this is massively different than when he was playing with Takeo Spikes who was strictly a run stuffer, willis was probably the best MLB at covering TEs those years. Brooks doesn’t play like a regular strong side outside linebacker. He has primary edge contain responsibility like almost like an DE but will funnel things to the MLBs. Fangio may run it this way because of the athleticism of his middle linebackers though. Its an interesting scheme, theres just no way I could give Bowman the nod over Willis. Willis has played bowmans position at a high level before and now he plays a completely different one at the same high level

Id also disagree with Bowman being more violent than willis. But we will get to see this year, Willis is going back to playing his old position with more coverage responsibilites and they have a few guys vying for the spot next to him. Bowmans injury was pretty grusome so who knows when/if we will see them play together again.

If willis is only better than Bowman because of his insane athletica ability, that still makes him better than bowman

If Chris Borland just rises to stardom, ill just say **** it, call them all bums and give Fangio all the credit

Whole point of my argument for shazier is I think we took patrick willis with shazier and the ravens took keith rivers with mosely. The ravens get left with mosely 2 picks later, and got left with Jernigan 2 picks after we took Tuitt....at least imo

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Willis best attribute against the run isn't his speed. It's the fact that he... like Farrior had all the attributes (including instincts) to play the inside. In college, he could take on a block, shed and still make the tackle. He was a proven commodity in that regard. I'm not convinced that Shazier can do that... yet.

"4 pounds lol"

This is just ignorant. Stop reading the NFL.com combine stats page and do some further resource. He gained a lot of weight to get up to 238. He's never played at that weight. He's said that in several interviews. The NFL scouts told him he needed to put on that weight and to keep it on. Thankfully for us... he didn't lose any speed in the process. Trying to indicate that he's been playing at 238 is just plain inaccurate.

Steelz09 was en fuego

[RuthlessBurgher]

Steelz09 was en fuego

SteelerOfDeVille is Dan Patrick.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

SteelerOfDeVille is Dan Patrick.

I WISH... I'd be rich! lol

[Shawn]

I also posted shaziers TFL stats...more than any MLB currently in the NFL had at the college level...willis, kuechley, bowman, timmons, beason, burfict, washington,....ect. 17 and 24 TFL wasnt even close to being matched by any of those guys. He winds up and shoots the gap as good as any linebacker. Shazier and Timmons on inside cross blitzes are going to be a thing of beauty. His 70 solo tackles were more than any OSU defender in 10 years, more than willis ever had and the same amount kuechley had as a senior.

His combine numbers are incredibly impressive, but his production speaks for itself without the gaudy times and distances

You never said one thing that bowman does better than willis, you just read that he might be better on the internet and ran with it.

Willis and Shazier are different kinds of LBrs. Willis was much more physical coming out of college. I remember seeing his film and commenting on it. The dude was a man amongst boys. But, he isn't the athlete that Shazier is, and doesn't have the ceiling that Shazier has. Shazier can be the best ILB in the game...he has that kind of upside. But, he MUST prove he can play at 237 and not drop 20 pounds during the season. He must be able to disengage. But I do think all that will come.

[Iron City Inc.]

Willis and Shazier are different kinds of LBrs. Willis was much more physical coming out of college. I remember seeing his film and commenting on it. The dude was a man amongst boys. But, he isn't the athlete that Shazier is, and doesn't have the ceiling that Shazier has. Shazier can be the best ILB in the game...he has that kind of upside. But, he MUST prove he can play at 237 and not drop 20 pounds during the season. He must be able to disengage. But I do think all that will come.

Good points. Had a feeling you'd be kicking the tires on this thread about a OSU draft pick.

[K Train]

Willis and Shazier are different kinds of LBrs. Willis was much more physical coming out of college. I remember seeing his film and commenting on it. The dude was a man amongst boys. But, he isn't the athlete that Shazier is, and doesn't have the ceiling that Shazier has. Shazier can be the best ILB in the game...he has that kind of upside. But, he MUST prove he can play at 237 and not drop 20 pounds during the season. He must be able to disengage. But I do think all that will come.

True. Shazier played small at OSU. I remember seeing willis look like a monster at Ole Miss playing with that club of a cast on his arm/hand. I am largely assuming his size wont be an issue and he will keep the weight on. Timmons bulked up similarly (after his first year in the league though) and kept it on, he went from a light ~230 to a hammer 250