Boy I sure get tired of the debate by those outside Steeler Nation (and many in it).
The Steelers, EVEN with great D's, do not make it to 3 Super Bowls without Big Ben. He changed the tide of this franchise when he stepped on the field in 2004. He had mojo we will all remember forever. I mean who has TURNED the fortunes of a franchise more than Big Ben in Steelers history? Yes, Joe Greene. That speaks volumes.
But with todays FF nerds, anti-Steelers bias in the HOF voters and fans, his "trouble" off the field, he will not be a first ballot. And he will have a tough time making it at all unless he makes more playoff runs and perhaps makes it to a FOURTH Super Bowl. Shame it has to be that way.
I agree 100% with every thing you said. I'll add that if the Steelers had Ben in his prime in the 90's,they would have won 2-3 Super Bowls then.
Originally Posted by skyhawk
Yep. The only reason they made it, finally, to SB in 1995 was NOD's playmaking (and Willie Williams shoestring tackle to stop the Colts from running out the clock on 3rd down in the AFCC) in the crunch in the playoffs and the second half of the season after starting 3-4. If it were Ben they could have won it all. And others.
Originally Posted by buccoray61
Add to all this, another fact of Ben that was just posted.
Last edited by skyhawk; 06-25-2014 at 08:20 PM.
While I know that the conversation is considered to be a bit of a slap in the face by many fans, we need a bit of perspective first. In the modern era, there have only been 23 QBs inducted into the HOF - http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/positions.aspx
There are not as many inducted as you'd think. So, here is a little comparison in going by decades...
Not saying that Ben doesn't belong, just saying that it seems to be extremely tough for an NFL QB to get in.
For the most part, those are the guys who won Super Bowls (multiple SB's in many cases, with ringless outliers like Tarkenton, Fouts, Marino, Moon, and Kelly). There are many single Super Bowl winners who are certainly not worthy (like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, etc.) but the only multiple SB-winning QB not to get inducted is Jim Plunkett. We'll see if Ben and Eli join Plunkett or join Canton.
Originally Posted by steeler_fan_in_t.o.
1.22 OLB Alvin "Bud" Dupree, 6'4" 269
2.56 TE Clive Walford, 6'4" 251
3.87 CB Alex Carter, 6'0" 196
4.121 OT Donovan Smith, 6'6" 338
5.160 FS Kurtis Drummond, 6'1" 208
6.199 WR Stefon Diggs, 6'0" 195
6.212c CB Cam Thomas, 6'0" 195
7.239 OLB Obum Gwachum, 6'5" 246
RB John Crockett, 6'0" 217
RB Corey Grant, 5'9" 201
DE B.J. Dubose, 6'4" 284
DE Martin Ifedi, 6'3" 275
FS Jordan Haden, 5'11" 200
P Spencer Roth, 6'4" 227
The ONLY argument to keep Ben out would be if they keep Kurt Warner out.
EVERY eligible QB who has won three conference titles is in. If Warner and his basically six years of productivity get in? Ben's a lock.
That's due to a dearth of talent on his side of the ball. His defense was great, but for many years the other 10 starters on offense were collectively below average.
Originally Posted by BURGH86STEEL
Between 2008 and 2012, the Steelers had 11 different offensive linemen who started at least 10 games: Flozell Adams, Willie Colon, Trai Essex, Ramon Foster, Justin Hartwig, Chris Kemoeatu, Doug Legursky, Maurkice Pouncey, Jonathan Scott, Darnell Stapleton and Max Starks. Adams, Essex, Hartwig, Kemoeatu, Stapleton and Starks are all out of football now, and only Adams left on his own terms. Foster and Pouncey are the only ones still with the Steelers, and they're both starting. Of the eight who are neither retired nor with the Steelers, only Colon, Legursky and Scott were good enough to land roster spots on other teams, and only Colon is starting. Legursky and Scott are hanging onto their roster spots for dear life.
There were eight RBs who carried the ball for the Steelers between 2008 and 2012: Baron Batch, Najeh Davenport, Carey Davis, Jonathan Dwyer, Rashard Mendenhall, Mewelde Moore, Isaac Redman and Gary Russell. None of them are still with the Steelers. Only Dwyer is still in the league, and he's a backup. Batch, Davenport, Davis, Mendenhall, Moore, Redman and Russell are all out of football, and only Moore made it to his 30th birthday in the league. Between those eight RBs was a total of 23 player seasons for the Steelers, only two (both by Mendenhall) of which were 1,000-yard rushing seasons.
As for the WRs, the Steelers had six of them among the top three on the depth chart between 2008 and 2012: Antonio Brown, Santonio Holmes, Emmanuel Sanders, Mike Wallace, Hines Ward and Nate Washington. Only Brown is still with the Steelers, and he's a relatively recent phenomenon. Ward was a great WR, but is now retired, and was past his prime when Roethlisberger was entering his. Holmes and Wallace were exposed as overrated when they no longer had Roethlisberger throwing them the ball, and Sanders was let go this off-season without being offered a contract extension. Washington was more productive with another team, but that's because his new team promoted him from the slot to be the primary WR.
This just goes to show you how underwhelming the rest of the offense was for several years. You bet Roethlisberger thanked his defense a bunch, because he had little else without them.
Pittsburgh, PA: City of Champions.
Ben's not asked to lead a top offense. Because as soon as his offense gives this defense (with all it's money invested in it) they take the air out of the football.
You want the offense to score more points? Get out of Ben's way, and give the offense more money.
If you look at it in 20-year increments (or "generations," so to speak), it gets better. There are currently 26 QBs in the Hall of Fame, and here's how it breaks down by generation, including the season each QB first entered the NFL:
Originally Posted by steeler_fan_in_t.o.
- Sammy Baugh (1937)
- Sid Luckman (1939)
- Bob Waterfield (1945)
- Bobby Layne (1948)
- Y.A. Tittle (1948)
- Norm Van Brocklin (1949)
- Otto Graham (1950)
- Bart Starr (1956)
- Len Dawson (1957)
- Sonny Jurgensen (1957)
- Fran Tarkenton (1961)
- Joe Namath (1965)
- Bob Griese (1967)
- Roger Staubach (1969)
- Terry Bradshaw (1970)
- Joe Montana (1979)
- John Elway (1983)
- Jim Kelly (1983)
- Dan Marino (1983)
- Warren Moon (1984)
- Steve Young (1985)
- Troy Aikman (1989)
- Brett Favre (1991)
- Peyton Manning (1998)
- Tom Brady (2000)
- Drew Brees (2001)
The three QBs listed in the 2000s-2010s generation are all imminent Hall-of-Famers. All other QBs of this generation are still uncertain. There are also three QBs in the Hall of Fame who were in their primes on the cusp of two different generations: George Blanda (1950s-1960s), Johnny Unitas (1950s-1960s) and Dan Fouts (1970s-1980s).
Assuming that Aaron Rodgers becomes a certainty for the Hall of Fame as well, that more than likely leaves three or four spots open for Roethlisberger among this generation's QBs. I believe the next three seasons will be what ultimately gets him in.
Last edited by DBR96A; 06-26-2014 at 05:45 PM.
Pittsburgh, PA: City of Champions.
It's incredible that this is even an argument. Maybe that is what makes it interesting.
But no one seems to mention that Ben was Rookie of the year. The 2nd QB to win that accolade since the merger and the first to win it since 1970.
He also is the youngest QB to ever win the Super Bowl. A title he still owns after 10 years in the league.
The thing is, he has been kicking ass in this league ever since he stepped on the field. The consistency of his competitiveness and sometimes domination is impressive.
His remaining 5+ years will insure first ballot worthiness.
Whether he is Hall worthy is a rather silly discussion, IMO.