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Thread: It's way too early to worry about Jarvis Jones

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo View Post
    Because to accept the fact that the defense is unnecessarily complex would require criticism of the architect of that system and that is "verboten" in the minds of some. It's not like the complexity is fooling any of our opponents as evidenced by decresing sack and turnover totals for the past three years and giving up a near league leading number of plays over 20+ yards last year.
    There was another thread about some of the previous SB teams. Look at the 2008 team, and look at the defense that was trotted out there last year. Any difference in the talent?

    You'll say that it's easier to find talent for the 4-3, but look at Dallas last year. Even with Monte Kiffin, their defense stunk.

    You need talent for any defense.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo View Post
    Because to accept the fact that the defense is unnecessarily complex would require criticism of the architect of that system and that is "verboten" in the minds of some. It's not like the complexity is fooling any of our opponents as evidenced by decresing sack and turnover totals for the past three years and giving up a near league leading number of plays over 20+ yards last year.
    I could accept this side of the debate a lot easier if Dick Lebeau never put an outstanding defense on the field; however, history tells us differently. Regardless, of the complexity of the defense, the Steelers have had players that have been able to grasp and execute the defense at the highest level in the NFL. If other players can make it work, then today's players should be able to make it work, they aren't that stupid.

    The difference now is that the players being drafted to replace aging vets simply aren't as talented as the players they are attempting to replace, if they were the replacement would be seamless as it has in the past, but they aren't and its taking them longer to get up to speed.

    Now, if you want to lay blame on Lebeau, Colbert and Tomlin for poor talent evaluation on defense, I'll happily agree there, but I can't see how the complexity of the defense should be a problem, talent, yes, complexity, no.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ryan Shazier - ILB/OLB
    2.46) Stephon Tuitt - DE
    3.97) Dri Archer - RB
    4.118 ) Martavis Bryant - WR
    5.157) Shaquille Richardson - CB
    6.173) Wesley Johnson - OT
    6.192) Jordan Zumwalt - ILB
    7.215) Daniel McCullers - DT
    7.230) Rob Blanchflower - TE

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyesq View Post
    There was another thread about some of the previous SB teams. Look at the 2008 team, and look at the defense that was trotted out there last year. Any difference in the talent?

    You'll say that it's easier to find talent for the 4-3, but look at Dallas last year. Even with Monte Kiffin, their defense stunk.

    You need talent for any defense.
    Kiffin's son rubbed off on him. His D stunk at USC too...

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    I could accept this side of the debate a lot easier if Dick Lebeau never put an outstanding defense on the field; however, history tells us differently. Regardless, of the complexity of the defense, the Steelers have had players that have been able to grasp and execute the defense at the highest level in the NFL. If other players can make it work, then today's players should be able to make it work, they aren't that stupid.

    The difference now is that the players being drafted to replace aging vets simply aren't as talented as the players they are attempting to replace, if they were the replacement would be seamless as it has in the past, but they aren't and its taking them longer to get up to speed.

    Now, if you want to lay blame on Lebeau, Colbert and Tomlin for poor talent evaluation on defense, I'll happily agree there, but I can't see how the complexity of the defense should be a problem, talent, yes, complexity, no.

    Pappy
    not sure about that... I think the players of today are just as smart and talented as those other players. The problem is we no longer have 3 to 4 years to let these guys learn the D before becoming full time starters.

    It's much easier to slowly put 1 or 2 guys into our D while it's top 5. However, when you have to put 4 to 6 guys into the rotation we see how damaging the complexity is on our younger players.

    People are still referencing Kendrall Bell when asked about a rookie playing well in our D and that wasn't under DL.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    I could accept this side of the debate a lot easier if Dick Lebeau never put an outstanding defense on the field; however, history tells us differently. Regardless, of the complexity of the defense, the Steelers have had players that have been able to grasp and execute the defense at the highest level in the NFL. If other players can make it work, then today's players should be able to make it work, they aren't that stupid.

    The difference now is that the players being drafted to replace aging vets simply aren't as talented as the players they are attempting to replace, if they were the replacement would be seamless as it has in the past, but they aren't and its taking them longer to get up to speed.

    Now, if you want to lay blame on Lebeau, Colbert and Tomlin for poor talent evaluation on defense, I'll happily agree there, but I can't see how the complexity of the defense should be a problem, talent, yes, complexity, no.

    Pappy
    Because if you don't have the same talent, you make changes to put the talent you have in the position to be successful. You don't just keep forcing it hoping all the stars align and you get just the right player combinations gain. That method is sure to result in long term mediocrity and is very high risk.

    While everyone wants to catgorize me as a LeBeau hater, the reality was for many years I loved what we did on defense because we had the players to make it work and work well. My issue is that it was clear to me three years ago we had a unique grouping of players and as we lost those players talent replacement was going to be a challenge because a whole lot of things just happened to go right for us; especially the conversion of players from college DE to OLB and college DT to DE. I always thought it was high risk to think that could continue especially as more and more teams copied what we were doing and started mining the same talent pool for the same type of players.

    Add in the supposed complexity that the system has that requires several years to master and that makes it even more risky.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    not sure about that... I think the players of today are just as smart and talented as those other players. The problem is we no longer have 3 to 4 years to let these guys learn the D before becoming full time starters.

    It's much easier to slowly put 1 or 2 guys into our D while it's top 5. However, when you have to put 4 to 6 guys into the rotation we see how damaging the complexity is on our younger players.

    People are still referencing Kendrall Bell when asked about a rookie playing well in our D and that wasn't under DL.
    Exactly. We need more sooner and if that means simplfying it has to be done.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  7. #17
    Legend papillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    not sure about that... I think the players of today are just as smart and talented as those other players. The problem is we no longer have 3 to 4 years to let these guys learn the D before becoming full time starters.

    It's much easier to slowly put 1 or 2 guys into our D while it's top 5. However, when you have to put 4 to 6 guys into the rotation we see how damaging the complexity is on our younger players.

    People are still referencing Kendrall Bell when asked about a rookie playing well in our D and that wasn't under DL.
    Not all good players have taken 3-4 years, Aaron Smith was productive in his 2nd year, Hampton was productive in his 2nd season, Polamalu was productive in his 2nd season, Taylor was productive in his 3rd season, Timmons didn't start many games, but was productive in his 2nd season, Farrior was immediately productive (I realize he was with the Jets, but it wasn't Lebeau's "complex" defense there, he learned Lebeau's defense in one training camp), Joey Porter was productive in his 2nd season, Greg Lloyd - 2nd season, Carnell Lake immediate impact, Hoke started 10 games as a rookie and was a great backup to Hampton to the point that some fans believed we could allow Hampton to walk if necessary, there is success in the Steeler defense prior to 3rd or 4th seasons, but for some reason the younger players now aren't replacing the veterans as seamlessly as those in the past.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ryan Shazier - ILB/OLB
    2.46) Stephon Tuitt - DE
    3.97) Dri Archer - RB
    4.118 ) Martavis Bryant - WR
    5.157) Shaquille Richardson - CB
    6.173) Wesley Johnson - OT
    6.192) Jordan Zumwalt - ILB
    7.215) Daniel McCullers - DT
    7.230) Rob Blanchflower - TE

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo View Post
    Because if you don't have the same talent, you make changes to put the talent you have in the position to be successful. You don't just keep forcing it hoping all the stars align and you get just the right player combinations gain. That method is sure to result in long term mediocrity and is very high risk.

    While everyone wants to catgorize me as a LeBeau hater, the reality was for many years I loved what we did on defense because we had the players to make it work and work well. My issue is that it was clear to me three years ago we had a unique grouping of players and as we lost those players talent replacement was going to be a challenge because a whole lot of things just happened to go right for us; especially the conversion of players from college DE to OLB and college DT to DE. I always thought it was high risk to think that could continue especially as more and more teams copied what we were doing and started mining the same talent pool for the same type of players.

    Add in the supposed complexity that the system has that requires several years to master and that makes it even more risky.
    LeBeau did make changes....and it paid off in the second half of last season...

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    Not all good players have taken 3-4 years, Aaron Smith was productive in his 2nd year, Hampton was productive in his 2nd season, Polamalu was productive in his 2nd season, Taylor was productive in his 3rd season, Timmons didn't start many games, but was productive in his 2nd season, Farrior was immediately productive (I realize he was with the Jets, but it wasn't Lebeau's "complex" defense there, he learned Lebeau's defense in one training camp), Joey Porter was productive in his 2nd season, Greg Lloyd - 2nd season, Carnell Lake immediate impact, Hoke started 10 games as a rookie and was a great backup to Hampton to the point that some fans believed we could allow Hampton to walk if necessary, there is success in the Steeler defense prior to 3rd or 4th seasons, but for some reason the younger players now aren't replacing the veterans as seamlessly as those in the past.

    Pappy
    Hokie didn't start until year 4...

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slapstick View Post
    LeBeau did make changes....and it paid off in the second half of last season...
    The only change he made was Troy playing a quasi-LB position which directly led to the team giving up more long plays than any other team in the league last year.

    If that is his success story for innovation, the time for change is not with players.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

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