Page 5 of 15 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 147

Thread: Defense, defense, defense...

  1. #41
    Legend papillon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Under your bed
    Posts
    6,835
    Quote Originally Posted by steelblood View Post
    I thought they played more cover 2 than they had all season. Chancellor was back quite a bit. Sure there was a lot of Cover 1, but they did both (for a change). I do agree that we cannot play cover 1 and be effective.

    Still, for me, their DL pressure made their secondary great in this game (not vice versa). Those DEs owned Denver's tackles all night long. As a result, Manning was constantly hit and off target. Couple that with tight coverage and it was a thing of beauty. Reminded me of that old time team from the seventies that played physical bump and run coverage and had a dynamic defensive line.
    Manning was holding the ball too long. You can't wait for a receiver to come open, you have to anticipate the break and through the receiver open, what a rookie he is.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ryan Shazier - ILB/OLB
    2.46) Stephon Tuitt - DE
    3.97) Dri Archer - RB
    4.118 ) Martavis Bryant - WR
    5.157) Shaquille Richardson - CB
    6.173) Wesley Johnson - OT
    6.192) Jordan Zumwalt - ILB
    7.215) Daniel McCullers - DT
    7.230) Rob Blanchflower - TE

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  2. #42
    Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    3,453
    Manning 3 & 5 step drops are by design. Design to get the ball out before the pass rush gets there. An indication of 31 teams. There is a reason why he is one of the least sacked QBs.

    Broncos turned the ball over 4 times to hawks 0. That's a minimum TO point differential of 24 with a max of 56. Add in a ST TD. Anyone want to take a hip shot at why the score was 43-8? Seahawks defense is stout...Front & back end. If the Steelers retain Worilds & Hood...Steelers defense is very good in the front 7 but have 3 bleeding hemorrhoids in the back end.

    I'm a football guy & I will be the first to say you build in the trenches on the Offensive side of the ball & front 7 on the defense. The Steelers have addressed it. This isn't a Madden draft or fantasy draft. You have people in place & you scale out to them. The Steelers have to retain their investments & develop the younger ones. The guys here just have to get better & that is the story on every team. Over the last 7 drafts the Steelers have invested 4-1st rounds & 2-2nd rounds in the front 7. All of them are starters. Over that same period the Steelers invested "0" on the DBs. That's building your front 7. That's being complacent with your DBs because of their success. They also invested a 3rd over that period to fill the other ILB with Spence. If Spence is over 6' he is a 2nd round talent. The Steelers have made a full investment in building their front 7. The only spot they haven't addressed early is NT because Hampton was in place. They did spend a 4th on Ta'Amu & gave up too soon. The slab of granite doesn't always chip away to usable piece. Talent equals talent...End of story.

    These quotes about fix the pass rush & that will solve everything are blind. You could put the Pro Bowl front seven in Steeler uniforms next season & a 35 year old Clark, a 34 year old Taylor, & a 33 year old Polamalu will still get lit up and there will still be guys in here banging the table about fixing the front 7 & fix the pass rush. The Steelers will be #1 against the rush & 32nd against the pass. Here's the bottom line. In '14...You give me Heyward, McClendon, Hood, Worilds, Williams/Foote, Timmons, & Jones in the front 7...And C Allen, a new CB, Troy, and a new FS....This team is going into the playoffs & a contender. You give me any revised variation in the front 7 you want and Ike, C Allen, Clark, & Troy in the secondary...This team will struggle to hit 8-8 again. Clark is gone. This will be Taylors last year & he has to take a 4 mil paycut and will be challenged to start. Troy can be extended for "0" additional dollars to help that cap and he has only 1 or 2 years left in him.

    If you watched all the Steelers games in 2013..Took into consideration a 1st year starter at NT & 2 rookies in the front 7... And still came away not seeing the secondary is old & slow and the Steelers biggest problem...Then you are looking at this team with your heart. It's so easy to point your finger at a new face than players that have been he for nearly a decade & given us 3 SB appearances. Sorry guys...I saw the jerseys with Clark, Taylor, & Polamalu across the back trailing the guy with the ball too much in 2013. It's a young mans game and Clark, Taylor, & Polamalu look like old men on a playground. Just look at the passing stats below. Fall off isn't in the front 7. The Steelers could use an upgrade at NT & there in uncertainty with Spence...But giving up the big play is the Steelers poison.Big Plays = Speed.

    Passing
    2013: 9th passing D-34 sacks (25th)- 46 passing plays over 20 (8th) -12 passing plays over 40 (26th)
    2012: 1st passing D-37 sacks (15th)- 31 passing plays over 20 (1st) -2 passing plays over 40 (1st)
    2011: 1st passing D-35 sacks (17th)- 34 passing plays over 20 (1st) -2 passing plays over 40 (1st)

    Rushing
    2013: 21st against rush 1,849-4.3 avg (21st)-7 plays over 20 (8th)-5 plays over 40 (28th)
    2012: 2nd against rush 1,450-3.7 avg (3rd)-6 plays over 20 (3rd)-1 play over 40 (7th)
    2011: 8th against rush 1,597-4.0 avg (9th)-9 plays over 20 (8th)-1 play over 40 (7th)


    Scoring defense over that span was '13 (19th), 12' (6th), '11 (1st).

    17 plays allowed over 40 yards. You have to go back to 1999 to find that bad of a season. You look at those 5 run plays over 40 alone. Forte 55, Peterson 60, Pryor 88, Tannehill 48, & D Thomas 48. That's 5 plays of 299 yards that pushed the Steelers rushing defense from 5th to 21st. You can watch ever one of those plays on nfl.com. Everyone of them show missed tackles & no speed to chase.

    We weren't talking blown coverages or getting man handled at the LOS. We are talking about missed tackles & no chase. We are talking about Safeties taking bad angles & not having enough speed to make a play. We are talking about old & slow DBs that can't take a false step or take a bad angle or miss a tackle because there is nobody that can run a play down. Speed. Speed doesn't get better with age.

    Pass rush doesn't fix that. If the QB is taking 3 & 5 step drop and throwing his 1st or 2nd read because he is open...Pass rush won't get there. Look at '11 & '12 when we had the best passing defense...We were middle of the pack in sacks. Last time the Steeler led the league in sacks '10 they ranked 12th against the pass at 214 yards per game. Interesting enough, the Steelers ranked 9th against the pass this year at 221 yards per game with 14 less sacks but gave up 11 more plays over 20 yards & 5 more plays over 40 than 2010.

    There is no way a DB playing off coverage is going to react to a 3 step drop. You have to tackle the catch. The reason our CBs are in off coverage is they don't have have a Safety capable of playing Cover 1 to bump or in Ikes case the speed anymore. That's the reason why you see the Steelers jumping into nickel when they should stay in base Cover 1 to protect against the run. Offensive personnel packages dictate our sub. The reason why you have to fix the secondary FIRST is all of the above. You get the secondary fixed...You could inject whatever you want in the front 7 & that will have an impact on the entire defense.

    For example, say the Steelers retain Worilds & Hood. The Steelers sign Malcom Jenkins to play FS & say Antoine Cason to push Taylor for starting if he takes a cut. Then they draft Nix in the 1st...Van Noy in the 2nd...And Desir in the 3rd. You just finalized a championship D for years to come. There is a real possibility that by mid season that Cason/Desir & Allen are you starting CBs with Jenkins & Polamalu at S. The LBs would be Worilds, Timmons, Van Noy, & Jones. DL would be Heyward, Nix, & Hood. I would be interested to know if anyone would object to that Defense & keep everyone happy!

  3. #43
    Legend papillon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Under your bed
    Posts
    6,835
    Quote Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY View Post
    Manning 3 & 5 step drops are by design. Design to get the ball out before the pass rush gets there. An indication of 31 teams. There is a reason why he is one of the least sacked QBs.

    Broncos turned the ball over 4 times to hawks 0. That's a minimum TO point differential of 24 with a max of 56. Add in a ST TD. Anyone want to take a hip shot at why the score was 43-8? Seahawks defense is stout...Front & back end. If the Steelers retain Worilds & Hood...Steelers defense is very good in the front 7 but have 3 bleeding hemorrhoids in the back end.

    I'm a football guy & I will be the first to say you build in the trenches on the Offensive side of the ball & front 7 on the defense. The Steelers have addressed it. This isn't a Madden draft or fantasy draft. You have people in place & you scale out to them. The Steelers have to retain their investments & develop the younger ones. The guys here just have to get better & that is the story on every team. Over the last 7 drafts the Steelers have invested 4-1st rounds & 2-2nd rounds in the front 7. All of them are starters. Over that same period the Steelers invested "0" on the DBs. That's building your front 7. That's being complacent with your DBs because of their success. They also invested a 3rd over that period to fill the other ILB with Spence. If Spence is over 6' he is a 2nd round talent. The Steelers have made a full investment in building their front 7. The only spot they haven't addressed early is NT because Hampton was in place. They did spend a 4th on Ta'Amu & gave up too soon. The slab of granite doesn't always chip away to usable piece. Talent equals talent...End of story.

    These quotes about fix the pass rush & that will solve everything are blind. You could put the Pro Bowl front seven in Steeler uniforms next season & a 35 year old Clark, a 34 year old Taylor, & a 33 year old Polamalu will still get lit up and there will still be guys in here banging the table about fixing the front 7 & fix the pass rush. The Steelers will be #1 against the rush & 32nd against the pass. Here's the bottom line. In '14...You give me Heyward, McClendon, Hood, Worilds, Williams/Foote, Timmons, & Jones in the front 7...And C Allen, a new CB, Troy, and a new FS....This team is going into the playoffs & a contender. You give me any revised variation in the front 7 you want and Ike, C Allen, Clark, & Troy in the secondary...This team will struggle to hit 8-8 again. Clark is gone. This will be Taylors last year & he has to take a 4 mil paycut and will be challenged to start. Troy can be extended for "0" additional dollars to help that cap and he has only 1 or 2 years left in him.

    If you watched all the Steelers games in 2013..Took into consideration a 1st year starter at NT & 2 rookies in the front 7... And still came away not seeing the secondary is old & slow and the Steelers biggest problem...Then you are looking at this team with your heart. It's so easy to point your finger at a new face than players that have been he for nearly a decade & given us 3 SB appearances. Sorry guys...I saw the jerseys with Clark, Taylor, & Polamalu across the back trailing the guy with the ball too much in 2013. It's a young mans game and Clark, Taylor, & Polamalu look like old men on a playground. Just look at the passing stats below. Fall off isn't in the front 7. The Steelers could use an upgrade at NT & there in uncertainty with Spence...But giving up the big play is the Steelers poison.Big Plays = Speed.

    Passing
    2013: 9th passing D-34 sacks (25th)- 46 passing plays over 20 (8th) -12 passing plays over 40 (26th)
    2012: 1st passing D-37 sacks (15th)- 31 passing plays over 20 (1st) -2 passing plays over 40 (1st)
    2011: 1st passing D-35 sacks (17th)- 34 passing plays over 20 (1st) -2 passing plays over 40 (1st)

    Rushing
    2013: 21st against rush 1,849-4.3 avg (21st)-7 plays over 20 (8th)-5 plays over 40 (28th)
    2012: 2nd against rush 1,450-3.7 avg (3rd)-6 plays over 20 (3rd)-1 play over 40 (7th)
    2011: 8th against rush 1,597-4.0 avg (9th)-9 plays over 20 (8th)-1 play over 40 (7th)


    Scoring defense over that span was '13 (19th), 12' (6th), '11 (1st).

    17 plays allowed over 40 yards. You have to go back to 1999 to find that bad of a season. You look at those 5 run plays over 40 alone. Forte 55, Peterson 60, Pryor 88, Tannehill 48, & D Thomas 48. That's 5 plays of 299 yards that pushed the Steelers rushing defense from 5th to 21st. You can watch ever one of those plays on nfl.com. Everyone of them show missed tackles & no speed to chase.

    We weren't talking blown coverages or getting man handled at the LOS. We are talking about missed tackles & no chase. We are talking about Safeties taking bad angles & not having enough speed to make a play. We are talking about old & slow DBs that can't take a false step or take a bad angle or miss a tackle because there is nobody that can run a play down. Speed. Speed doesn't get better with age.

    Pass rush doesn't fix that. If the QB is taking 3 & 5 step drop and throwing his 1st or 2nd read because he is open...Pass rush won't get there. Look at '11 & '12 when we had the best passing defense...We were middle of the pack in sacks. Last time the Steeler led the league in sacks '10 they ranked 12th against the pass at 214 yards per game. Interesting enough, the Steelers ranked 9th against the pass this year at 221 yards per game with 14 less sacks but gave up 11 more plays over 20 yards & 5 more plays over 40 than 2010.

    There is no way a DB playing off coverage is going to react to a 3 step drop. You have to tackle the catch. The reason our CBs are in off coverage is they don't have have a Safety capable of playing Cover 1 to bump or in Ikes case the speed anymore. That's the reason why you see the Steelers jumping into nickel when they should stay in base Cover 1 to protect against the run. Offensive personnel packages dictate our sub. The reason why you have to fix the secondary FIRST is all of the above. You get the secondary fixed...You could inject whatever you want in the front 7 & that will have an impact on the entire defense.

    For example, say the Steelers retain Worilds & Hood. The Steelers sign Malcom Jenkins to play FS & say Antoine Cason to push Taylor for starting if he takes a cut. Then they draft Nix in the 1st...Van Noy in the 2nd...And Desir in the 3rd. You just finalized a championship D for years to come. There is a real possibility that by mid season that Cason/Desir & Allen are you starting CBs with Jenkins & Polamalu at S. The LBs would be Worilds, Timmons, Van Noy, & Jones. DL would be Heyward, Nix, & Hood. I would be interested to know if anyone would object to that Defense & keep everyone happy!
    I think you're giving unproven and young players too much credit, IMO. Worilds (last 8 games were very good, previous 3.5 years, not so much), Van Noy, Jones, Desir, Hood, Nix are all unproven or rookies, that defense might be good some day, but I wouldn't think it will be next year. It would, however, be a step in the right direction if the rookies pan out at some point.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ryan Shazier - ILB/OLB
    2.46) Stephon Tuitt - DE
    3.97) Dri Archer - RB
    4.118 ) Martavis Bryant - WR
    5.157) Shaquille Richardson - CB
    6.173) Wesley Johnson - OT
    6.192) Jordan Zumwalt - ILB
    7.215) Daniel McCullers - DT
    7.230) Rob Blanchflower - TE

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  4. #44
    Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    3,453
    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    I think you're giving unproven and young players too much credit, IMO. Worilds (last 8 games were very good, previous 3.5 years, not so much), Van Noy, Jones, Desir, Hood, Nix are all unproven or rookies, that defense might be good some day, but I wouldn't think it will be next year. It would, however, be a step in the right direction if the rookies pan out at some point.

    Pappy


    I had this Worilds discussion many times. His 3.5 years were pretty dam good with 2 ProBowlers in front of him. He is the younger, cheaper, upside option right now over Woodley. Like I said, "a possibility by mid season". If they are going to spend the 1st on Nix...I'm sure they see him as plug & play at some point in 2014. I'm not there yet on him. Van Noy would have to beat out Foote, Wiliams, or Spence if healthy. The thing about Van Noy is he is starter capable inside & out. That's the hybrid LB depth. Very good in coverage & rushing the passer. At some point, him & Timmons will stay on the field in sub. Jones will be the starter if they retain Worilds & release Woodley. 1 or 2 offseason weight training & we will see who he is. Desir was put there with Cason. Cason could overtake Taylor if he declines at the same rate. It will be a matter of whom gets more comfortable in the system to push to start. Hood isn't unproven. He is a durable solid starter that you keep your investment.

  5. #45
    Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,866
    Quote Originally Posted by steelblood View Post
    I thought they played more cover 2 than they had all season. Chancellor was back quite a bit. Sure there was a lot of Cover 1, but they did both (for a change). I do agree that we cannot play cover 1 and be effective.

    Still, for me, their DL pressure made their secondary great in this game (not vice versa). Those DEs owned Denver's tackles all night long. As a result, Manning was constantly hit and off target. Couple that with tight coverage and it was a thing of beauty. Reminded me of that old time team from the seventies that played physical bump and run coverage and had a dynamic defensive line.

    According to a Sherman interview, it was almost exclusively Cover 1 and Cover 3 during the game. He also commented "Carroll simplified it to a few basic formations". That's OK and can work, IF you have the talent to pull it off.

  6. #46
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    12,905
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCoast View Post
    According to a Sherman interview, it was almost exclusively Cover 1 and Cover 3 during the game. He also commented "Carroll simplified it to a few basic formations". That's OK and can work, IF you have the talent to pull it off.
    Some of that "talent" is just young guys playing fast in a simplified defense.

    Put those same guys in our D next year and ask them to learn 15 different blitz designs and formations and you will see these same guys a step late and blowing assignments. We would see the same excuses about late rounders and a lack of talent.

    Outside of Thomas there aren't many players on this Seattle D that we knew of before they blossomed in Seattle.

    This isn't a bunch of talent... its scheme and coaching.
    Last edited by feltdizz; 02-05-2014 at 07:32 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    Some of that "talent" is just young guys playing fast in a simplified defense.

    Put those same guys in our D next year and ask them to learn 15 different blitz designs and formations and you will see these same guys a step late and blowing assignments. We would see the same excuses about late rounders and a lack of talent.

    Outside of Thomas there aren't many players on this Seattle D that we knew of before they blossomed in Seattle.

    This isn't a bunch of talent... its scheme and coaching.
    I disagree.

    The reason that the simplified D works is because of the talent...

    They drafted talent that fit their scheme in the later rounds...something the Steelers haven't done well in a few years...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Slapstick View Post
    I disagree.

    The reason that the simplified D works is because of the talent...

    They drafted talent that fit their scheme in the later rounds...something the Steelers haven't done well in a few years...
    I agree - it is the talent that drives the success of that defense. Same with the Tampa-2 Ds that the Bucs, Bears and Colts ran - they worked because of guys like Urlacher, Brooks, Freeney, etc. They didn't work as well without talent.

  9. #49
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    12,905
    Quote Originally Posted by Slapstick View Post
    I disagree.

    The reason that the simplified D works is because of the talent...

    They drafted talent that fit their scheme in the later rounds...something the Steelers haven't done well in a few years...
    we will agree to disagree.

    Seattle's scheme is simplified D... so it's easy to draft "talent" when all they have to do is play ball. Line up, beat your man... that's it. No trickery, no complexity, no confusion... just simplified football.

    Do you really think the light came on for Heyward? That guy has been waiting to attack and kill for years... but we asked him to "occupy blockers" and drop into coverage because it worked 5 years ago... once we turned him loose we saw his talent shine.

    Timmon's is another one... Timmons was a mad man his second year flying around crushing guys but IMO we messed that up by asking or demanding he learn all 4 LB positions. DL was giddy with Timmons the same year most of us were asking what happened to him.

    This philosophy applies to the OL as well. Asking guys to learn all 5 positions instead of letting them master one hasn't worked and its probably why so many of our guys stay injured.

    It's football... there is no need to make it this complex. Simplify and draft players to play in a simplified D and you will see our D get back to playing good ball. The days of 5 year practice squad/special team guys turning into DPOY are over.

  10. #50
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    12,905
    Quote Originally Posted by phillyesq View Post
    I agree - it is the talent that drives the success of that defense. Same with the Tampa-2 Ds that the Bucs, Bears and Colts ran - they worked because of guys like Urlacher, Brooks, Freeney, etc. They didn't work as well without talent.
    Did those D's ask Urlacher to learn all 4 LB positions?
    Did Freeney have to learn to occupy blockers and do anything other than rush the passer?

    When you give a guy 1 or 2 assignments instead of 12 assignments it's much easier to see their talent.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •