Should the Steelers force Lebeau out?

[papillon]

Pap--nothing is a slam dunk about being better, but I think the issue is that many of feel we need to get some new perspectives and a willingness to make changes some of which may be radical.

As an example, just look at our own offense. Ben plays stubborn and the offense stumbles, the OL can't produce holes, Ben keeps hitting the ground, etc. Now look at the last 6 games. Ben embraces change and plays within Haley's system, the OL is a non issue and protects, the running game starts to produce, the Steelers win.

There just seems to be no appetite for a fundamental change on defense or even the willingness to consider it. The NFL is not the NFL of 2002-2006. Sure there is some minor change stuff around the edges but is it really working when we see a four year trend with decreasing sacks, decreasing INTs, more big plays given up, etc. All this from a defense that is supposedly predicated on pressure, forcing mistakes and getting turnovers as designed by LeBeau. None of that is happening anymore. Why? Is it the players? Only to some extent but what are you going to do, wait 4-5 years to hopefully get just the right players like we had five years ago? You have the players you have so you have to adjust to play to their strengths.

I'm just not a guy to change something just for the sake of changing it. If you have a short term plan and a long term plan, you stay the course. There is absolutely no empirical evidence that shows Lebeau doesn't make adjustments and changes, that his age and physical health are keeping him from putting in the necessary time to be successful and that he hates rookies and won't play them. What I'm pretty sure we have seen is a very fair man that requires a player to actually out perform the guy in front of him and if he can't, then he doesn't get on the field, it's really that simple.

As I've said, if Lebeau goes, it won't make a difference to me, personally, I think the organization will be weaker for pushing him out rather than allowing him to retire on his own. He has pride, but he's also a company guy and I get the feeling that if he feels he's the problem he'll be the first to get out of the way and let someone else take over. At this point, he believes he can help make the team better, I tend to agree, for now.

Pappy

[pittpete]

Using your strategy, the Steelers never have the services of JHarrison for example, took too long to develop.

Northcoast what are you talking about, wasn't JH an undrafted FA?
Was Harrison going to start over Porter or Gildon?
IIRC they were still both productive OLb's in 2002.
Read my post again, i said younger players need to be counted on sooner than 3 years.
Ike and Clark were dog**** this year, what young CB and safety saw the field?
We resigned Allen because he knows the scheme right...
He had 1 nice game and was average the rest of the way.
Kiesel goes down and who comes back in but the human slide Ziggy Hood.
Lets just leave it at LeBeau can't coach forever and forever should be now IMO.

[feltdizz]

Since Seattle is being held up as the new model for building a defense let me ask how long it took for that defense to pass the "eyeball test"? It certainly wasn't great 3 yrs ago. Wasn't even as good as the Steeler's defense 2 yrs ago. The fact is that it required all the pieces coming together just last season. And let's see how long they can stay there once they start picking at the bottom of the draft like the Steelers have done for a decade. It's the consistency of the Steelers defense that we have been spoiled by as fans. Very few other teams have had such perenial success. If DL had never fielded a great defense or hadn't had one for 4 yrs straight, then I wouldn't argue his firing. But 2 yrs with all the loss in player leadership?... no way a make a call that quickly.

Pete Carroll was hired in 2010.... the reason people are pointing to Seattle is because they made a drastic change in a short period of time. They didnt do it with a bunch of 1st rounders, they did it with late rounders and cast offs in FA.

I'm not concerned with being #1 in ypg or even ppg. I'm more concerned with being physical, getting pressure and creating TO's....

Last year or 2 years ago we were #1 in a few stats but even Stevie Wonder could see our D didn't pass the eye test.

[phillyesq]

Ike and Clark were dog**** this year, what young CB and safety saw the field?What young corner did they have on the roster? None. Schmarko Thomas saw time, then got hurt, then was replaced by Will Allen, who played pretty well.

We resigned Allen because he knows the scheme right...
He had 1 nice game and was average the rest of the way. What better option was there? With Schmarko hurt, who else should have been playing?

Kiesel goes down and who comes back in but the human slide Ziggy Hood. Again, what better option was there?

Lets just leave it at LeBeau can't coach forever and forever should be now IMO.

This post seems long on complaints and short on solutions. We see all these complaints, but no solutions. It's not like the Steelers played Clark while blocking a first round pick from playing. They didn't have much else. Same with corner. After Ike, Gay and Cortez Allen, they had nobody.

[papillon]

Pete Carroll was hired in 2010.... the reason people are pointing to Seattle is because they made a drastic change in a short period of time. They didnt do it with a bunch of 1st rounders, they did it with late rounders and cast offs in FA.

I'm not concerned with being #1 in ypg or even ppg. I'm more concerned with being physical, getting pressure and creating TO's....

Last year or 2 years ago we were #1 in a few stats but even Stevie Wonder could see our D didn't pass the eye test.

I'm not sure who the castoff is on their defense, but they have 2-1st round picks, a second, a third, 1-UDFA and the rest are 4th thru 6th, they certainly have drafted well late and Sherman is the best example as a 5th round selection. Thomas, Sherman, Irvin and Bryant are going to want to get paid, along with Wilson and Lynch. Let's see how good they are in a couple years, if their DC is awesome as many think he is because they are the "defense du-jour"

Until a defense can string together 8-10 years of excellence I'm not getting excited about how great they are. They are great now, hell, next year could be different. The Steelers have been consistently good for so long that when they have down years the fans lose their minds.

Two years of Steeler sub-standard defense while in transition and fans are going fruit loops and while this is certainly on the coaching staff and FO the 2008 and 2009 drafts were horrible. You can't make lemonade out of oranges, poor drafting and players not being able to out perform the player in front of them have led the defense to where it is now, not Lebeau. In 2008 and 2009 the following players were on the field defensively and only Farrior and Smith would be considered long in the tooth at 34 and 33: Harrison, Farrior, Woodley, Polamalu, Taylor, Clark, Hampton, Gay (drafted Burnett to replace), Smith which of those players at that time was a rookie going to outperform? Gay, maybe. You don't just add youth for the sake of adding youth, they have to be able to play and out perform the player in front of them.

The reality is that ages 28-32 are the prime years for great players, you don't just start putting rookies in front of them when they are playing their best football.

All I'm hearing is they played the vets too long, can't change, blah, blah, blah...they played the vets too long because they were the best option to win football games and at the end of the day, that's the goal of a football team.

Pappy

[Oviedo]

This post seems long on complaints and short on solutions. We see all these complaints, but no solutions. It's not like the Steelers played Clark while blocking a first round pick from playing. They didn't have much else. Same with corner. After Ike, Gay and Cortez Allen, they had nobody.

The problem Philly is that the biggest thing blocking change in solutions is LeBeau. That is what this thread is about. The willingness to change or even consider change on the part of the Def Coord. The reality is that older people in any profession are resistant to change. I see it everyday working for at one of the largest corporations in the world. This is primarily because their power and authority are based upon their knowledge. Change threatens that knowledge base. New ideas require re-education which is hard and puts young "whipper snappers" who have new knowledge and skills on the same level with the old established vets. LeBeau isn't immune to this because he is human and not some higher life form as others seem to want to believe.

In the past several other posters and myself have offered numerous opinions on what needs to be done. IMO, the biggest thing is that we need a defense that doesn't require most of a players rookie contract to be comfortable in and start producing.

Whether that is the 4-3 where players move into the positions they played all through college and we scouted and evaluated them playing and eliminate the need for risky conversions, or we simply stay with the 3-4 and simplify the scheme, or stay 3-4 and go one-gap are all topics for discussion.

The problem right now that some see and others won't is that essentially we are doing the same thing we did 5 years ago when we were very fortunate to have just the right combination of players to make it work. We don't have that combination of players so do we keep pounding the square pegs into round holes instead of creating square holes.

[phillyesq]

The problem Philly is that the biggest thing blocking change in solutions is LeBeau. That is what this thread is about. The willingness to change or even consider change on the part of the Def Coord. The reality is that older people in any profession are resistant to change. I see it everyday working for at one of the largest corporations in the world. This is primarily because their power and authority are based upon their knowledge. Change threatens that knowledge base. New ideas require re-education which is hard and puts young "whipper snappers" who have new knowledge and skills on the same level with the old established vets. LeBeau isn't immune to this because he is human and not some higher life form as others seem to want to believe.

In the past several other posters and myself have offered numerous opinions on what needs to be done. IMO, the biggest thing is that we need a defense that doesn't require most of a players rookie contract to be comfortable in and start producing.

Whether that is the 4-3 where players move into the positions they played all through college and we scouted and evaluated them playing and eliminate the need for risky conversions, or we simply stay with the 3-4 and simplify the scheme, or stay 3-4 and go one-gap are all topics for discussion.

The problem right now that some see and others won't is that essentially we are doing the same thing we did 5 years ago when we were very fortunate to have just the right combination of players to make it work. We don't have that combination of players so do we keep pounding the square pegs into round holes

I don't care whether Dick Lebeau, Keith Butler, the guy in Seattle or Vince Lombardi's ghost is coaching the defense. At some point, you need talent.

The post to which I was responding complained that certain vets weren't benched. It's the old complaint about not playing young players for the sake of youth. My point, in responding - who the hell were you going to plug in? Ike Taylor struggled a bit, but should the Steelers have thrown in Isaiah Green? Jacksonville castoff Antwon Blake? Some guys stink, regardless of whether they are young or old.

[feltdizz]

"The formula for us has been to get these guys and let them get assimilated into the defense and watch the veterans run it. Invariably, there have been situations where they've had to play and they've always done a pretty good job as Jarvis has done. If I had my choice I'd let him learn from the veterans and let them step into it as they become real comfortable in the defense." - Dick Lebeau

This is why some have a problem with Lebeau...

[phillyesq]

"The formula for us has been to get these guys and let them get assimilated into the defense and watch the veterans run it. Invariably, there have been situations where they've had to play and they've always done a pretty good job as Jarvis has done. If I had my choice I'd let him learn from the veterans and let them step into it as they become real comfortable in the defense." - Dick Lebeau

This is why some have a problem with Lebeau...

Please, point me to the defenses that are succeeding by playing rookies. You occasionally get an anomaly like Aldon Smith, but it is rare to have a guy make a real impact as a rookie.

In fact, compare the stats of Lamarr Woodley to most of the 4-3 DEs in the probowl this year. Woodley contributed more in his second year than most of those guys, who were not fully assimilated to their simplified defenses until their third years.

[feltdizz]

Please, point me to the defenses that are succeeding by playing rookies. You occasionally get an anomaly like Aldon Smith, but it is rare to have a guy make a real impact as a rookie.

In fact, compare the stats of Lamarr Woodley to most of the 4-3 DEs in the probowl this year. Woodley contributed more in his second year than most of those guys, who were not fully assimilated to their simplified defenses until their third years.

SF, Seattle, Carolina...

here is the thing, it isn't just about pro bowls or a D filled with rookies....

It's the whole "if I had my choice I would let them learn from the vets and slowly step into it as they become real comfortable"

Teams will have holes, teams will have injuries and it appears that other teams are able to put in rookies and get decent production when they fill in. Carolina had a few rookies in their backfield for a few games and they played very good ball. I also think the 3-4 complex zone makes it much harder to come in and have an impact or play solid ball due to all the responsibilities....

Maybe it's the 4-3 that makes it easier but that's the point.. these other teams get pressure with 4 guys and have a much easier time selecting players who can play earlier and at a much faster speed.

IMO the problem is we need Woodleys to be a great D. I think other teams are doing a better job finding late rounders who can play immediately.