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Thread: Butler to Join Whiz?

  1. #21
    Hall of Famer ikestops85's Avatar
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    I think we have to be careful putting Lake into the mix. Just because he has been doing well teaching the DBs doesn't mean he can be a DC. The DC is required to match with against the opponents OC. It takes a talent to guess what the opposing offense is going to do. How do we know Lake can call plays? How do we know he can adjust? These are some of LeBeau's strengths. Butler has spent years at DL's side learning these things where Lake is just a baby at it. Just some food for thought.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ikestops85 View Post
    I think we have to be careful putting Lake into the mix. Just because he has been doing well teaching the DBs doesn't mean he can be a DC. The DC is required to match with against the opponents OC. It takes a talent to guess what the opposing offense is going to do. How do we know Lake can call plays? How do we know he can adjust? These are some of LeBeau's strengths. Butler has spent years at DL's side learning these things where Lake is just a baby at it. Just some food for thought.
    How would we know he can't do these things? I mean he was only a LB in college who converted to safety, captained the D, made the defensive backfield calls and also played CB. I'd say that his years spent learning and teaching this defense, and one would hope being observant about situational football as a player and coach would have prepared him to make this jump. Maybe not this year ... but soon.
    What you are describing kinda sounds like the way the Steelers treat young defenders ... the D is sooo complex that you can't possibly begin to understand it, sooooo, we're gonna make you wait til year three to see what you can do. If you take this approach with coaches, they will eventually leave and go someplace where they can advance their careers. Which may be happening now with Butler and definitely happened with Horton.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidkid View Post
    no offense but why are people acting like lake is the obvious choice?
    the guy isnt really qualified to be a DC. hell, he hasnt even proved himself to be a great db coach
    just because the guy was a great player it doesnt make him a good coach.
    A FN men bro...
    We don't know what Butler brings to the table, but the organization must believe he's talented because of the promises made to him.
    I'd hate to have to start all over again if/when LeBeau decides he's done.
    I really wish the Steelers would promote Butler already and keep LeBeau as a defensive advisor of some sorts.
    If the organization decided to start from scratch and convert to a 4-3(dont want or believe they will) then everyone would have to go.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoe View Post
    If this were to happen, and Butler does happen to be an outstanding coordinator, it would end up being another sign of a complacent organization living in the past. In 2011, analysts were calling our defense old. At the time, players and many fans bristled at the thought, citing a "#1 defense" ranking at the end of the year. But the reality was--we were old. Fast forward two years later, and we are seeing the same sort of thing.

    In this case, people like me are saying that Lebeau (while a great contributor in the past), is more a passenger at this point (than he is a driver). Losing someone the caliber of Butler, because we refuse to see the truth, would hurt. Obviously, Lebeau is pretty much penciled in this year and beyond (short of a defensive debacle next year), but I would like to see Butler get his chance.
    i

    Is it DLs fault that the defense is old?
    You are right that it was statistically number one but too old. It was not as good as it looked like on paper.

    But let me ask you HOW DOES THAT EVEN Happen IF HE CANT COACH?
    Recent Steeler defenses should not have been close to number one by ANY statistical measure no matter how flawed we think the measure is.

    This team was full of over the hill types and poor draft picks.
    We had an old corner and a young corner BOTH of whom cannot catch a cold. THAT is why we had no turnovers. Wanna blame DL for that?
    We had a corner who LEAD THE CONFERENCE in passes defended (Lewis) and had ZERO picks. DL put him in position to make plays on the ball and he simply failed to do it all season long.

    And we kept the old guy who is now in decline and did not offer Lewis (yeah he might have walked anyway but we did not try.)

    This season OUR ENTIRE SECONDARY is over the hill, William (can't make another team) Gay was our best corner, the only above average (not great) player on the entire defense who is in his prime is Timmons.

    The biggest disappointment on the entire team BY FAR is Lamar Woodley.

    An elite talent in his prime who has underperformed and often came to camp woefully out of shape. He IS THE ONE DEFENDER WHO HAS BEEN AND ABSOLUTE JOKE.

    Who is HIS position coach?
    Don't tell me about the past, judge him like you do DL.

    No thanks, I'll go with DL for now and hand the reigns to a guy who has done more (more than one number one pass defense) with less talent in Carnell Lake.
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 01-12-2014 at 11:20 AM.

  5. #25
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    The system is sound. It is designed to limit big-plays, and when that is accomplished, you will rank high in the total yards system of the NFL. That, coupled with a good, ball-control offense, is why we usually rank so high.

    I've made the (apparently) controversial point, saying that old people tend to lose institutional control. And this is my issue with Lebeau as well. They don't get the most out of their charges, because they don't have that hard-charging, demanding nature anymore. Players still like him, because he's very comfortable. But you need a guy who is going to challenge you. Make a parallel, to the Ben-Arians-Haley situation. Ben was very comfortable with Arians, and he liked him. What Ben needed, was someone to make him a little uncomfortable, to make him grow as a player. I think our whole D lacks that dimension.

  6. #26
    Pro Bowler thor75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoe View Post
    The system is sound. It is designed to limit big-plays, and when that is accomplished, you will rank high in the total yards system of the NFL. That, coupled with a good, ball-control offense, is why we usually rank so high.

    I've made the (apparently) controversial point, saying that old people tend to lose institutional control. And this is my issue with Lebeau as well. They don't get the most out of their charges, because they don't have that hard-charging, demanding nature anymore. Players still like him, because he's very comfortable. But you need a guy who is going to challenge you. Make a parallel, to the Ben-Arians-Haley situation. Ben was very comfortable with Arians, and he liked him. What Ben needed, was someone to make him a little uncomfortable, to make him grow as a player. I think our whole D lacks that dimension.
    I'm not in the locker room but I disagree. For every different person, there is a different motivational tactic. The great teachers recognize this and adjust their "coaching" when presented with the individual instruction. I think DL is still well respected and listened to by his players-both young and old. Shamarko was in his ear all the time according to some media snipits. I don't think the current players would tune him out.
    1. C.J. Mosley LB Alabama
    2. Jordan Matthews WR Vanderbilt
    3. (comp) Philip Gaines CB Rice
    4. Arthur Lynch TE Georgia
    5. Ross Cockrell CB Duke
    5. (comp) Derrick Hopkins DT Virginia Tech
    6. Josh Mauro DE Stanford
    6. (comp) Shaquil Barrett OLB Colorado State
    7. Quincy Enunwa WR Nebraska

  7. #27
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    no big loss.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    i

    Is it DLs fault that the defense is old?
    You are right that it was statistically number one but too old. It was not as good as it looked like on paper.

    But let me ask you HOW DOES THAT EVEN Happen IF HE CANT COACH?
    Recent Steeler defenses should not have been close to number one by ANY statistical measure no matter how flawed we think the measure is.

    This team was full of over the hill types and poor draft picks.
    We had an old corner and a young corner BOTH of whom cannot catch a cold. THAT is why we had no turnovers. Wanna blame DL for that?
    We had a corner who LEAD THE CONFERENCE in passes defended (Lewis) and had ZERO picks. DL put him in position to make plays on the ball and he simply failed to do it all season long.

    And we kept the old guy who is now in decline and did not offer Lewis (yeah he might have walked anyway but we did not try.)

    This season OUR ENTIRE SECONDARY is over the hill, William (can't make another team) Gay was our best corner, the only above average (not great) player on the entire defense who is in his prime is Timmons.

    The biggest disappointment on the entire team BY FAR is Lamar Woodley.

    An elite talent in his prime who has underperformed and often came to camp woefully out of shape. He IS THE ONE DEFENDER WHO HAS BEEN AND ABSOLUTE JOKE.

    Who is HIS position coach?
    Don't tell me about the past, judge him like you do DL.

    No thanks, I'll go with DL for now and hand the reigns to a guy who has done more (more than one number one pass defense) with less talent in Carnell Lake.
    Preach it Captain!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    i

    Is it DLs fault that the defense is old?

    It absolutley is his fault. he is the one who has responsibility for developing players on the defense. He is the one who has created a complex defense that takes years to learn. He is the one who has been in a comfort zone with vets and hasn't given quality game reps to younger players. Kinda tough to give him a pass like he always gets.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo View Post
    It absolutley is his fault. he is the one who has responsibility for developing players on the defense. He is the one who has created a complex defense that takes years to learn. He is the one who has been in a comfort zone with vets and hasn't given quality game reps to younger players. Kinda tough to give him a pass like he always gets.
    His job is to put the best players on the field, in the best scheme, to achieve the best results. Handing starting jobs to unproven younger players who haven't beaten out the vet in front of them is a recipe for disaster.

    If you are going to blame Lebeau for not developing players on defense, why not blame Tomlin? Doesn't he bear any responsibility? Or why not blame Tomlin/Colbert for missing so badly on so many picks? Cliff Avril made some nice plays this weekend. The Steelers brought him in for an interview and decided to draft Bruce Davis. You are going to blame Lebeau for that? Or for drafting Ziggy Hood, a guy who has done nothing to show that he can play in 5 years?

    And please, tell us about all the rookies tearing things up all over the league. Hint - they don't exist!! Maybe a guy or two here and there, but for the most part, rookies take time to adjust to the league, regardless of the system.

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