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Thread: Jarvis Jones

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BURGH86STEEL View Post
    The Lebeau coached defense performed at a high level consistently. Ben struggled with consistency. As a result, the offense never performed at the level of top offenses in the league from a consistency stand point. Based on the offensive and defensive rankings over the years who needed to adjust/improve more? Ben or Lebeau? The defense only had one way to go. Can't bethe number one defense or a top 5 defense every year. Having a top 5 ppg defense 70% of the time is pretty good though.

    Uncharacteristic big plays were the biggest issue for the defense this season. Players give up big plays mostly due to poor execution.

    The defense always played rookies. It's rare that rookies come into the league and have a huge impact. It's not only about grasping the defense. Rookie defensive players must also learn how to cope with the speed of the game. The must also deal with offenses that throw multiple personnel packages and formations. Making the transition from college to the pros isn't as easy as some of you want to believe. Most players that come out of college are NOT ready to play at a high level right away in the NFL. There will always be an adjustment period for players. That adjustment period will be different for each player. Based on my observations that's generally things how play our around the league. It took 2 or 3 seasons for the players you mentioned to make a name for themselves.

    The ppg stat is the most important stat for a defense. Regardless of the number of sacks, turnovers, ect. the Steelers didn't make the playoffs without a top 5 ppg defense since 2004.

    One season doesn't constitute a trend my friend.

    Lebeau is going to retire eventually so you will have your wish. Steelers fans are spoiled.


    Its been more than one year... I know some of you love those stats butI'm talking about the eye test, turnovers, critical stops. We are slipping in that department. We are old, we've been old and will continue to be old because of the scheme.

    The O has been less consistent but its because the O had more player turnover over the years.

    Ben is the only player left from 2004. Until last year or 2 years ago the D had Ike, Troy, Hampton, Keisel, Hoke, Foote, Farrior, Haggans, etc...

    Of course the D should field a better team. Its Pittsburgh...

    The O may be middle of the pack but they are consistently in the same spot. The D has slipped...and will continue to slip as long as we keep the same philoshy. We can't continue down this road of 32 and 34 year olds because the young guys can't catch on.

  2. #62
    Hall of Famer DukieBoy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=feltdizz;589089]The difference between the Seattle D and ours is physicality. They are called the Legend of Boom. Only thing we are called is old.

    All you have to do is watch the Seahawks and you can recognize they play physical football. What is interesting is that win, lose or draw, the team that plays them loses the next week.

    I noticed how lethargic the Colts looked on Monday night in their loss to the Chargers. San Diego was running right through the defense and the Colts never got in sync. I went back and looked at every team that Seattle faced and looked at how they played the following week. All six teams lost the following week.

    Carolina lost to Buffalo, San Francisco lost to Indianapolis, Jacksonville lost to Indianapolis, Houston lost to San Francisco and Indianapolis lost to San Diego. What was striking about the losses was the points scored and points given up. The six teams only generated a combined total of 45 points the week after their Seattle encounter (7.5 points per team) and they gave up 23.5 points per team.
    Tennessee lost to Seattle last week and now host the 49ers. It looks like it could be seven in a row.


    The difference between us and Carolina.... ppg. Carolina gave up 15 ppg. We gave up 23. By the way... Seattle gave up 14.4.

    Turnovers... Seattle 39, San Fran 30, Carolina 31.. Steelers 20.

    Carolina and San Fran are also more physical...

    Oh... and we are older than all those other teams on D.


    [/QUOTE


    Great post, Dizz. It used to be that teams who played the Steelers usually got beaten up the following week. Getting older is one issue. Defensive strategy is another. It did not help us that Goodell seemed so intent on fining our players. The rules changes have come along and we have changed the nature of our play. How has Seattle adapted to the new rules and yet sustained the high level physicality in their game?



    Narcissistic injury is the term used for any threat to a narcissist's outsized ego or self-esteem.



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by BURGH86STEEL View Post
    Basically what you are saying is it's about the players ability to execute. Putting a defense like that together is difficult. Keeping a defense like that together with the free agency is even more difficult.

    Combine FA and offensive slanted rules and the days of consistently dominating defenses year in year out are probably over.
    Its about putting younger players on the field earlier... it can be done. It has to be done to compete in this new NFL. We can't stick to the old model when the rules and game have changed rapidly over the last few years.

    If you combine FA, offensive slanted rules and how hard it isto keep a D together whythe hell would anyone want to keep a scheme that benches most of our young guys due to the steep learning curve?

    The game in college has changed as well... moving forward I think it would make more sense to scale things back so these kids get reps earlier and more often so we can keep up with the new rules and CBA rookie contracts.

  4. #64
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    Dukie... It comes down to youth and scheme. When I watch Carolina and Seattle I see swagger, I see players having fun, I see defenses attacking and blitzing DB's and I see players winning one on ones and gang tackling.

    When I watch our D I see old knees... players choosing to stand next to a pile instead of jumping in to finish tackles. I see our DB's 7 yards off the ball chasing players instead of chasingor playing the ball. I see a D trying to trick the other team instead of beating up the other team. The biggest problem is watching players play a step slow because they are thinking instead of reacting.

    I'm not a Lebeau hater...I just think the philosophy we were forced to use this year needs to be used EVERY YEAR. Our rookies and 2nd year players need meaningful snaps and it shouldn't be due to injuries or old heads finally retiring.

    The patience we used with young players isn't sustainable in this new NFL. Everyoneon here knew Heyward was better than Hood... everyone on here probably would have given Keenan Lewis another shot after his brain fart in the preseason. The punishment for him was too severe given our CB issues.

    There is no freaking way anyone could convince me all that game he has shownthis yearand last wasnt obvious in practice a yearor 2 earlier. We should have locked him up a year earlier.

    I won't be surprised if Worilds leaves this offseason because a new team will play him all day every day and turn him loose. These kids have a limited time to make some money... they aren't going to stick with usif we stick with an outdated philosophy

  5. #65
    Legend papillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    Its about putting younger players on the field earlier... it can be done. It has to be done to compete in this new NFL. We can't stick to the old model when the rules and game have changed rapidly over the last few years.

    If you combine FA, offensive slanted rules and how hard it isto keep a D together whythe hell would anyone want to keep a scheme that benches most of our young guys due to the steep learning curve?

    The game in college has changed as well... moving forward I think it would make more sense to scale things back so these kids get reps earlier and more often so we can keep up with the new rules and CBA rookie contracts.
    I don't believe that young players are kept on the bench based on age prejudice, they are kept there because they can't win the job from a veteran, because they don't handle their assignments properly when they are young. Jones won the job and by all accounts he was NFL ready and had to be benched because he couldn't handle his assignments and became a liability. In the middle of a season you are not playing for draft picks you are trying to win games and the veterans, Troy, Ike, Woodley, Worilds and Ryan gave the Steelers the best chance to win games.

    Occasionally, a team hits the jackpot and fields a young defense that is good, Seattle, 49ers come to mind, I'd be curious to see how many players on their defenses are from the 2008 and 2009 drafts. The Steelers have a gaping hole in their roster from those two years and thinking that there isn't a cumulative affect from those two drafts is wrong, IMO. One player remains and he may be gone within the next few months.

    This year's defense had a huge void in the middle of the defense, NT, ILB and ultimately SS because our SS had to play linebacker 50% of the time or more. At the end of the year as Williams got a grasp of the defense and McClendon began to show up the defense began to play better.

    The Steelers can use help on both sides of the ball, but you simply aren't going to out score your opponent in a shoot out every week. It's too easy to make a critical mistake at a critical time during a shoot out to rely on scoring 30 plus points every week. The Chiefs yesterday is a classic example of a defense (Indy's) making a few key plays at opportune times to get off the field and put the offense back on the field. The Chiefs didn't go into a shell on offense, but a sack here, a penalty there, a dropped pass, a fumble all added up to not enough offense and they lost.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ryan Shazier - ILB/OLB
    2.46) Stephon Tuitt - DE
    3.97) Dri Archer - RB
    4.118 ) Martavis Bryant - WR
    5.157) Shaquille Richardson - CB
    6.173) Wesley Johnson - OT
    6.192) Jordan Zumwalt - ILB
    7.215) Daniel McCullers - DT
    7.230) Rob Blanchflower - TE

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  6. #66
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    I'm not a fan of shootouts Pap. People like to pass, pass, pass and I know KC had injuries but the strip sack and intentional grounding were killers for them yesterday. Up 28 you have to eat clock.

    The problem I have with the chances of winning the most games with older vets is we haven't been winning and our growth is curbed another year.

    Our drafts didnt pan out those 2 years but we also made a commitment to give it a runone more time with these old vets.

    The way our D is set up its damn near impossible for a rookie to beat out a vet. Its too complex.... but in this new NFL these young heads our running past our vets who "know their assignments" but lack the young legs to get to their spots, break down and deliver a good hit.

  7. #67
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    Also realize half the players from the 2008 and 09 draft are playing good/decent ball... we lost some of those guys because we invested in older vets and refused to move on from some fan favorites.

    We used to be the team who shed elders and watched them struggle but now we shed players who are balling for other teams.

  8. #68
    Legend papillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    I'm not a fan of shootouts Pap. People like to pass, pass, pass and I know KC had injuries but the strip sack and intentional grounding were killers for them yesterday. Up 28 you have to eat clock.

    The problem I have with the chances of winning the most games with older vets is we haven't been winning and our growth is curbed another year.

    Our drafts didnt pan out those 2 years but we also made a commitment to give it a runone more time with these old vets.

    The way our D is set up its damn near impossible for a rookie to beat out a vet. Its too complex.... but in this new NFL these young heads our running past our vets who "know their assignments" but lack the young legs to get to their spots, break down and deliver a good hit.
    The Steelers haven't been "winning" for two years, that isn't horrible and in both years the opportunities were there to make the playoffs. The Steelers were never really "out of it", like say, Cleveland, Jax, Atlanta (this year), Oakland, and others by the 8th or 9th game. Ben is the oldest offensive player, Ike, Troy and Clark are the aging vets, Troy had a Pro-Bowl year and these three guys will need to be dealt with this year. The Steelers will then be young again and based on what was happening at the end of the year, I think they'll be good enough to compete while they learn and the offense will have to shoulder the load.

    The defense has been successful for far too long for me to believe that age and complexity are the biggest problems on this defense. A NT, ILB and a FS may not be on the roster. If the offense can carry the load next year while these positions mature the Steelers should make the playoffs, the following year should begin their last run with Ben at another Super Bowl.

    They need a good draft this year, last year's looks to be good at this point. As a fan, we still had 32 games over the past 2 years that were still games in which the Steelers were in the playoff hunt and the turnover from old guard to new guard on offense and defense is in motion. Many teams fade out of playoff contention in this scenario, the Steelers did not, even though it appeared that they were destined for this fate.

    Iguess what I'm saying mostly is that Haley, Lebeau and Tomlin are good enough to get the Steelers where the fans want them to be, they aren't the problem.

    Pappy
    Last edited by papillon; 01-05-2014 at 01:22 PM.


    1.15) Ryan Shazier - ILB/OLB
    2.46) Stephon Tuitt - DE
    3.97) Dri Archer - RB
    4.118 ) Martavis Bryant - WR
    5.157) Shaquille Richardson - CB
    6.173) Wesley Johnson - OT
    6.192) Jordan Zumwalt - ILB
    7.215) Daniel McCullers - DT
    7.230) Rob Blanchflower - TE

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    Also realize half the players from the 2008 and 09 draft are playing good/decent ball... we lost some of those guys because we invested in older vets and refused to move on from some fan favorites.

    We used to be the team who shed elders and watched them struggle but now we shed players who are balling for other teams.
    You mean Kennan Lewis? He owned DeShawn Jackson last night..

    If we had been able to keep him around I have a feeling drafting a NT in round 1 would be a lot more popular idea than it is now.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    Dukie... It comes down to youth and scheme. When I watch Carolina and Seattle I see swagger, I see players having fun, I see defenses attacking and blitzing DB's and I see players winning one on ones and gang tackling.

    When I watch our D I see old knees... players choosing to stand next to a pile instead of jumping in to finish tackles. I see our DB's 7 yards off the ball chasing players instead of chasingor playing the ball. I see a D trying to trick the other team instead of beating up the other team. The biggest problem is watching players play a step slow because they are thinking instead of reacting.

    I'm not a Lebeau hater...I just think the philosophy we were forced to use this year needs to be used EVERY YEAR. Our rookies and 2nd year players need meaningful snaps and it shouldn't be due to injuries or old heads finally retiring.

    The patience we used with young players isn't sustainable in this new NFL. Everyoneon here knew Heyward was better than Hood... everyone on here probably would have given Keenan Lewis another shot after his brain fart in the preseason. The punishment for him was too severe given our CB issues.

    There is no freaking way anyone could convince me all that game he has shownthis yearand last wasnt obvious in practice a yearor 2 earlier. We should have locked him up a year earlier.

    I won't be surprised if Worilds leaves this offseason because a new team will play him all day every day and turn him loose. These kids have a limited time to make some money... they aren't going to stick with usif we stick with an outdated philosophy
    Dizz, I saw a Steelers D that did EXACTLY what you wanted this year. Played young guys. Whether out of necessity or not, the fact is they played. Cortez, Vince Williams, Worilds, Shamarko, Jarvis, Heyward, Woods, Garvin, Mclendon, are all 25-years old or younger.

    You can't play young players and then complain that they're thinking too much instead of reacting. That's what happens with young guys. Until they learn the defense (and ALL NFL defenses are complex, not just here) they'll be a step slow. I'm psyched for next year because a lot of the elders will be gone or with diminished roles, but because of the increased PT by the youngins this season, I feel like they'll be much better.

    You gotta let the Keenan Lewis situation go. Everyone wanted him retained, but it takes two to tango. They even mentioned it during last nights game. He wanted to go home to N.O. and wasn't staying in PGH.

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