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Thread: Never draft defensive ends in the first!!!

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    Slappy in your "counter" you inadvertently are making my case.
    TROY is a PLAYMAKER in our defense
    TROY IS a difference maker in our defense
    TROYS presence directly impacts wins and loses in our defense
    Our defense suffers when Troy is out.

    I can quote ad nauseam, the idea that the effectiveness of THE ENTIRE DEFENSE stems from the talent of our defensive line. The linebackers get the glory but we need great DEFENSIVE LINEMEN to enable them. It does not. Farrior DID NOT need Casey to be a tackle machine. He did it with Hoke and his career high for tackles WAS AS A JET.

    Judge our defensive linemen on what THEY DO not the team in general.

    The difference between Smith in his prime and Ziggy is that Smith can make 50 or 60 tackles in a season. Give Smith THAT credit, not credit for what a probowl linebacker does cause THAT skill aint rare.
    I wasn't "countering" your case...I simply questioned the validity of the "evidence"...aka, the Steelers' 17-1 record with Hoke at the nose...

    I could just as easily have asked how many games Ben played...

    Now, given the argument, one could make the case for not drafting DEs in round one...personally, I would choose BPA, regardless of position (except K and P...or LS)...what LeBeau is rumored to be doing this year is allowing the DEs to get upfield, which is fine...which is probably what they should do...

  2. #22
    I do think the DLine is the key to the Steelers D. And the proof is in the pressure on the QB and the turnovers which have gone out the window for the Steelers since Casey and Aaron were in their prime.
    And the fact that our two sack leaders plus Troy have been dealing with injuries the past few seasons had no impact? Really Flippy?
    I will break it down below using examples when the linebackers were healthy but the lineman was out.

    The value in a guy like Casey was being able to collapse and move the pocket in any direction we wanted on any play. With Casey in there, there was never room for a QB to step up in the pocket to bide more time to make a play downfield. It gave the outside rushers better angles to the QB deep in the pocket. And forced the opposing QB to be a little less comfortable without the safety of the pocket. This leads to more pressure, more sacks, bad decisions, more turnovers, etc.
    I understand the "THEORY". I really do. Here is some REALITY.

    2010 Casey misses 10 games.
    Hoke is a ROOKIE that year.

    During that 10 game run we:
    Go underfeated.
    Beat BOTH superbowl participants in the process
    Create turnovers in 9 of the 10 games
    Create 3 or more turnovers in 4 of those games
    3 or more sacks in most of those games.
    Single digits allowed in 4 of the 10 games

    Season team results with Casey our a majority of the season?

    Leagues number 1 defense in yardage AND scoring
    Steelers all time best regular season record
    Farriors ONLY career AllPro season....Plays the middle MOST impacted by the nose. Farrior razzes Casey about Hoke getting him that award.
    Smiths ONLY career Probowl- (One would think the constant double team Casey reputedly requires would make it HARDER for Smith to achieve w/o Casey)

    Same for Aaron who imho was the best 3-4 DE in the history of the game.
    That would be J.J. Watt. It aint close.

    I already made the point that by your logic Kimo is better than Smith, since the guy on HIS side was more productive than Haggins.

    How is Woodley (who played next to Smith) REALLY impacted when Smith is gone? You cant look at the post injury Woodley.
    What did Woodley do minus Smith pre-injury?
    In the 16 weeks prior to his getting hurt spanning parts of 2010 that playoff and 2011, ALL GAMES Smith missed, WOODLEY AVERAGED NEARLY A SACK A GAME over 16 games (15 sacks).
    He had 9 sacks in his 8 games in 2011 prior to injury. That was a STEELER RECORD PACE.

    When Woodley was HEALTHY and NOT overweight he played some of his CAREER BEST FOOTBALL without Smith in the lineup.

    BTW the 2010 team played 13 (including the playoff) with Ziggy:
    We WENT TO THE SUPPERBOWL
    Had not one but TWO DPOY candidates, one won
    We had the number one defense in the league
    We averaged over two turnovers a game during the games Smith was out
    We had 48 sacks and created 35 total turnovers for the regular season

    Our defense was FINE (number one) a sack and turnover machine when we had healthy elite linebackers without Casey (2004)
    Our defense was FINE (number one) a sack and turnover machine when we had healthy elite linebackers without Smith (2010)

    Last season we did not have healthy elite linebackers.
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 09-12-2013 at 02:48 PM.

  3. #23
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    hold up.. Hoke played 10 games during 2004 season? LOL... no wonder the 17-1 stat keeps getting thrown out. I seriously doubt his starts were the reason we had that record.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    hold up.. Hoke played 10 games during 2004 season? LOL... no wonder the 17-1 stat keeps getting thrown out. I seriously doubt his starts were the reason we had that record.
    I AGREE Dizz.
    My point is the exact opposite.
    Hokes record shows that who the NT is matters far less than people think.

    BTW in the one loss, in Oakland in 2006, the Steelers allowed only 98 total yards, but lost because of two interception returns for touchdowns (one for 100 yards).

    Hoke SHOULD be undefeated. Not proof that he is better. But if a ROOKIE CAREER BACKUP can replace him with SO LITTLE measurable ill effect Casey sure aint the glue enabling everybody else to prosper like people say.

    For example typical comment:
    "Sure Casey does not make that many plays. But if it were not for Casey the other guys could not....."

    Could not what?
    This team was ABSOLUTELY FINE without him.
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 09-12-2013 at 03:18 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    And the fact that our two sack leaders plus Troy have been dealing with injuries the past few seasons had no impact? Really Flippy?
    I will break it down below using examples when the linebackers were healthy but the lineman was out.



    I understand the "THEORY". I really do. Here is some REALITY.

    2010 Casey misses 10 games.
    Hoke is a ROOKIE that year.

    During that 10 game run we:
    Go underfeated.
    Beat BOTH superbowl participants in the process
    Create turnovers in 9 of the 10 games
    Create 3 or more turnovers in 4 of those games
    3 or more sacks in most of those games.
    Single digits allowed in 4 of the 10 games

    Season team results with Casey our a majority of the season?

    Leagues number 1 defense in yardage AND scoring
    Steelers all time best regular season record
    Farriors ONLY career AllPro season....Plays the middle MOST impacted by the nose. Farrior razzes Casey about Hoke getting him that award.
    Smiths ONLY career Probowl- (One would think the constant double team Casey reputedly requires would make it HARDER for Smith to achieve w/o Casey)



    That would be J.J. Watt. It aint close.

    I already made the point that by your logic Kimo is better than Smith, since the guy on HIS side was more productive than Haggins.

    How is Woodley (who played next to Smith) REALLY impacted when Smith is gone? You cant look at the post injury Woodley.
    What did Woodley do minus Smith pre-injury?
    In the 16 weeks prior to his getting hurt spanning parts of 2010 that playoff and 2011, ALL GAMES Smith missed, WOODLEY AVERAGED NEARLY A SACK A GAME over 16 games (15 sacks).
    He had 9 sacks in his 8 games in 2011 prior to injury. That was a STEELER RECORD PACE.

    When Woodley was HEALTHY and NOT overweight he played some of his CAREER BEST FOOTBALL without Smith in the lineup.

    BTW the 2010 team played 13 (including the playoff) with Ziggy:
    We WENT TO THE SUPPERBOWL
    Had not one but TWO DPOY candidates, one won
    We had the number one defense in the league
    We averaged over two turnovers a game during the games Smith was out
    We had 48 sacks and created 35 total turnovers for the regular season

    Our defense was FINE (number one) a sack and turnover machine when we had healthy elite linebackers without Casey (2004)
    Our defense was FINE (number one) a sack and turnover machine when we had healthy elite linebackers without Smith (2010)

    Last season we did not have healthy elite linebackers.
    This is why I like you. You always dig up so many stats to support your arguments

    I still think there's a lot of things that work together here. Absolutely, the skill players are the LBs in this system and it's designed for them to make the plays. So if we don't have healthy, productive LBs, nothing works. And if I was Colbert, I'd get my skill players early in the draft on both sides of the ball and fill in the big uglies on day 3 and via UDFAs unless there was a really special player on the board.

    Re: Hoke, I think he was one of the most underrated Steelers in the history of the team. He probably should have left Pittsburgh and started somewhere else. He was big, quick, and strong as an ox. He played the nose a little different than Casey but was equally effective. While Casey controlled the pocket, Hoke controlled the gaps in the pocket. I'd contend he was just as effective as Casey. And if we didn't have Casey, we wouldn't have lost a beat with Hoke. I'm really glad Hoke's been working with McClendon. They've got a similar style. I think McClendon's a little quicker but not as strong. I'm still anxiously awaiting to see if his style works out. I think Dick has faith in the kid and has adjusted the system to his talent.

    The other point I'd make is Aaron Smith was still on the field that season and I think he was the better player than Casey. I think it was Dick Lebeau that once said he's never seen Aaron Smith blocked on a play. He did everything the Steelers ask of their 3-4 DEs and more. Not only did he control the LOS, but he was the one guy on the front that made plays. So I don't see a big drop off in the unit when Casey was out. We still had an elite group. And I know JJ had 20 sacks last year, but let's get him past his 3rd year in the league before we let him surpass Smitty and Seymour. JJ is a freak, that I'll agree.

    Re: Woodley, it was his 4th year in the league and he was becoming one of the best LBs in football. I see his stats being an overall reflection of the improvement in his game. And it's not like we had a big drop off in the line at that point. We were still very sound up front even without Smith. Plus we had Harrison on the other side of the field that commanded more attention because of his dominance.

    I'm not sure it's entirely fair to judge the DL based on LB performance (positive or negative). And saying Kimo outplayed Aaron isn't a dis to Aaron. Even Dirt said Kimo was the toughest guy he ever had to block. In general, I'd make the point that we had the best 3-4 DLine in the league with depth between Aaron, Casey, Kimo, Keisel, and Hoke for years. Every one of those players was dominant. And that made our D work.

    And I see it as the problem we have right now. We don't have dominant players up front. At least not yet. And it really started showing last season. Casey was dead weight and could barely move. He couldn't move and no one could move him. And I think that had a trickle down effect. Keisel was solid. Hood looked confused until about December when there was a uptick in his game. And I think it had a domino effect on the team. James, Troy, and Woodley being hurt didn't help. But we had some of the best play from our secondary since the days of Woodsen, Lake, Perry and that didn't even help these guys out.

    As it stands today, I still don't see anyone on our line that worries anyone. Just some guys you can block one on one. And we have multiple free linemen to pick up almost every blitz Lebeau tries. And it seems like he doesn't even try to blitz because it doesn't work with our line. And I give him some credit to trying to adjust to what these guys can do up front. Let McClendon and Keisel loose to pressure the QB themselves.

    I dunno how to quantify the value of these guys. I don't know what stats to pull up. I just notice QBs last year having so much room to step up in the pocket making it harder for our OLBs to get an angle to the QB. Every time DL blitzes, it looks like our opponent has 3 free linemen to pick up the blitzers always. I've seen this trend coming for 3 years even when the team was putting up stats. In general the pressure declined with Smitty's health and got worse as Hamp lost his game. Even when we were manufacturing sacks, our pressure was on the decline.

    I think we have some guys with potential up front. And I think this D will play as good as those guys do.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    I AGREE Dizz.
    My point is the exact opposite.
    Hokes record shows that who the NT is matters far less than people think.

    BTW in the one loss, in Oakland in 2006, the Steelers allowed only 98 total yards, but lost because of two interception returns for touchdowns (one for 100 yards).

    Hoke SHOULD be undefeated. Not proof that he is better. But if a ROOKIE CAREER BACKUP can replace him with SO LITTLE measurable ill effect Casey sure aint the glue enabling everybody else to prosper like people say.

    For example typical comment:
    "Sure Casey does not make that many plays. But if it were not for Casey the other guys could not....."

    Could not what?
    This team was ABSOLUTELY FINE without him.
    Any NT who played for 10 years or so at a high level is OK in my book. I don't think you can plug anyone in and have success but if you have Harrison, Porter, Troy, Ike, Farrior, Smith, Van Olhoffen, Clark, etc... and Dick Lebeau calling the shots it definitely helps.


    I'm not following the logic though... that's like pointing to Cedric, ARE and Hines and saying we could win another SB with a similar WR cast. I doubt it would happen...hell, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't happen again unless you had Bettis in the backfield, FWP, Faneca, Miller... etc.

    Point being... one man isn't responsible for our success on the DL but it's crazy to suggest we could have done it without Casey. He was here for too long and was respected around the league for a reason.

    If Hoke was all of that we would have cut Casey long ago... I think it's more of a coincidence that our record was that good with him than a result of his presence.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post

    If Hoke was all of that we would have cut Casey long ago... I think it's more of a coincidence that our record was that good with him than a result of his presence.
    The fact that the team paid a fortune to Casey and Aaron is a pretty good indicator of their value.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadman View Post
    When the Steelers drafted Keisel, Smith, signed KVO, Kirschke (are we really adding Kirschke to this list?), Steed, Seals etc...the 3-4 Defense was a rarity. These players were poor fits for a 4-3, hence their value on draft day was diminished.
    All u needed right there... we could get those guys in later rounds because nobody else needed/wanted them.

    Same goes for athletic, undersized DE's that we'd turn into OLBs... Look at the top of this past draft and it's pretty clear how different that's become... in the first 6 picks, there were 3 OT's and 3 DE/OLB hybrids (Dion Jordan, Ziggy Ansah, Barkevious Mingo) that some actually tied to the Steelers in mocks because of their obviousl fit in teh 3-4 defense. Fifteen years ago, the team would have gotten one of those guys in the 3rd (see Joey Porter) because other teams would have reservations about fit on their team.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    All u needed right there... we could get those guys in later rounds because nobody else needed/wanted them.

    Same goes for athletic, undersized DE's that we'd turn into OLBs... Look at the top of this past draft and it's pretty clear how different that's become... in the first 6 picks, there were 3 OT's and 3 DE/OLB hybrids (Dion Jordan, Ziggy Ansah, Barkevious Mingo) that some actually tied to the Steelers in mocks because of their obviousl fit in teh 3-4 defense. Fifteen years ago, the team would have gotten one of those guys in the 3rd (see Joey Porter) because other teams would have reservations about fit on their team.
    I agree. That's one reason why all positions should be considered in the first round outside of kicker and punter.

    Different factors can determine when a player is drafted. Unfortunately for the Steelers, more teams play the 3-4 or a variation of the 3-4. The draft strength of a particular position is another factor to consider. Should an organization draft a player that they believe can help the team win? Or should the organization wait and hope another player will be there later in the draft? The talent level generally drops with each round of the draft. Sometimes the talent level drops with in that round of the draft. Not all first round draft picks should be considered equal. Not all drafts by position should be considered equal either. That's why very few positions are off limits in the first round for the guys that draft for a living.

  10. #30
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    There was nothing fundamentally wrong with either the Hood or Heyward selections. Both were considered high round picks, both fit a need for the team, both had performed at the college level.

    If Hood & Heyward had been given a 'go get 'em' mantra instead of an 'occupy the blocker' mantra, would this argument still be going ahead?
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