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Thread: Why Was Ben Having a Pro Bowl Caliber Season Last Year?

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    -1, on this Ovi, not +1...
    2. It's amusing to me that you say i'm not addressing the question.
    SOD look at the title of the thread. "Why was Ben having a Pro Bowl Season" The initial post was talking about Ben's great "start".

    You are not addressing THAT question, as you disagree with the premise.

    Basically, you're saying, "Sod's using selective stats... don't look at those... look at the ones *i* select"
    No I am saying you are not selective at all, when selectivity is required to address this question.
    To make your case YOU include stats which factor in the play of the running game, backup QBs, and how Ben "finished" the season.
    The inclusion of those numbers skew the figures "down" as compared to looking at Ben's Great start.

    "I" did "select" stats. Those that address the initial post. I did not choose the topic Flippy did.

    In order to address the topic, one must limit the scope specifically how BEN PLAYED pre injury.

    In your attempt to obscure the degree of Ben's improvement, YOU broaden the scope of your statistics beyond those that measure "BEN ALONE" pre-injury.
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 06-10-2013 at 09:45 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    I believe it was mainly Haley..but not entirely.
    and that is really the difference. i don't believe it was mainly haley... i believe there were many factors, but, if i had to pick one to say "mainly"... if anything, i believe it was mainly ben just being better and wiser in year 10 than he was in year 3 or 5 or 7....

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    What I can't understand is why anyone would use stats where Ben wasn't playing or playing injured. It's just not honest. Not to mention, how does lacking a run game help the passing game?
    Ben plays injured ANNUALLY... Ben misses games ANNUALLY. comparing ONLY his healthy stats to PRIOR years when he DID play injured is dishonest... just sayin...

    (fwiw, the only team stats included were first downs... if they were playing at an amazing clip, moving the chains, you'd think even with the injury pulling the numbers back, they would have AT LEAST been in the neighborhood... they weren't)

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    Ben plays injured ANNUALLY... Ben misses games ANNUALLY. comparing ONLY his healthy stats to PRIOR years when he DID play injured is dishonest... just sayin...

    (fwiw, the only team stats included were first downs... if they were playing at an amazing clip, moving the chains, you'd think even with the injury pulling the numbers back, they would have AT LEAST been in the neighborhood... they weren't)
    I agree.. Ben rarely plays healthy. I'm still waiting for an answer about the number of first downs being low the first 8 games.

    I think the lack of a running game was also a reason. Some people say a bad running game would make it harder for him.... yet those same people say the it's a passing league and the running game isn't that important.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    Ben plays injured ANNUALLY... Ben misses games ANNUALLY. comparing ONLY his healthy stats to PRIOR years when he DID play injured is dishonest... just sayin...

    (fwiw, the only team stats included were first downs... if they were playing at an amazing clip, moving the chains, you'd think even with the injury pulling the numbers back, they would have AT LEAST been in the neighborhood... they weren't)
    I think looking at stats where Ben is clearly not himself physically is not the best gauge to analyze anything let alone an OC. I think a better indicator is looking at a healthy Ben to make assessments. I suppose we can agree to disagree.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    I agree.. Ben rarely plays healthy. I'm still waiting for an answer about the number of first downs being low the first 8 games.

    I think the lack of a running game was also a reason. Some people say a bad running game would make it harder for him.... yet those same people say the it's a passing league and the running game isn't that important.
    You answered your own question. If you have the worst run game in a generation that hurts your overall ability to convert 1st downs.

    It is EASY to quantify the degree that number is indicative of Ben's play.

    How effective was BEN at converting 3rd downs? We know he was great, heck you started that conversation. That being the case, any discussion of total first downs obscures the point.

    For example I just looked up 2 games where we had but ONE rushing 1st down. So you see a modest total first down number but it was ALL Ben.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    I think looking at stats where Ben is clearly not himself physically is not the best gauge to analyze anything let alone an OC. I think a better indicator is looking at a healthy Ben to make assessments.
    Agreed... except you wanted to compare games 1-8 with the prior seasons saying it was his best... though he was injured in the others. Excluding an annual occurence for only one year to say "for that stretch, it was his best year", is simply inaccurate.

    you could very easily say, "if ben wasn't injured during his prior best season, it would have been untouchable", for example... we all know this guy... he's got a bum ankle, rib, something, annually. it's how he plays. that toughness and desire to make a play is exactly why i would take him before any other QB in the league (though Manning would be close).

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    I suppose we can agree to disagree.
    agreed... lol

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    SOD look at the title of the thread. "Why was Ben having a Pro Bowl Season" The initial post was talking about Ben's great "start".

    You are not addressing THAT question, as you disagree with the premise.
    I had to go back to this - and now combining 2 posts, for simplicity... my apologies... But, I don't disagree with the premise - not sure that it was pro bowl caliber, but, it was certainly a good start for him, statitically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    For example I just looked up 2 games where we had but ONE rushing 1st down. So you see a modest total first down number but it was ALL Ben.
    Again, THIS is a HUGE factor... if you cannot run successfully, but, CAN pass successfully, guess which one you're gonna do more of? Ask Dan Marino... or Elway before Terrell Davis. you've totally shot yourself in the foot with this point.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    Again, THIS is a HUGE factor... if you cannot run successfully, but, CAN pass successfully, guess which one you're gonna do more of? Ask Dan Marino... or Elway before Terrell Davis. you've totally shot yourself in the foot with this point.
    I NEVER look at passing yardage totals as a measure of effectiveness.
    In my opinion Bens best regular season by FAR was 2007. He has been a more "prolific" passer every year since then.
    Dude threw 32 TDs in 132 LESS throws than the final year of Arians (2011) when Ben threw 21 TDs in 513 passes.

    This year Ben threw 26 TDs and was on pace for 32 prior to injury.
    Due to the injury he actually threw LESS passes than 2011 yet more TDs.
    Ben Bested the total of 26 TDs ONCE and has thrown more attempts FOUR times.

    Ben was on pace for similar effectiveness to 07 but with WAY less sacks under Haley.

    The "dink and dunk" was working.

    Think about it. Due to the battered oline the run game was useless and you cannot give Ben time.
    Haley looks at the situation and does the only logical thing.
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 06-11-2013 at 06:14 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    I NEVER look at passing yardage totals as a measure of effectiveness.
    In my opinion Bens best regular season by FAR was 2007. He has been a more "prolific" passer every year since then.
    Dude threw 32 TDs in 132 LESS throws than the final year of Arians (2011) when Ben threw 21 TDs in 513 passes.

    This year Ben threw 26 TDs and was on pace for 32 prior to injury.
    Due to the injury he actually threw LESS passes than 2011 yet more TDs.
    Ben Bested the total of 26 TDs ONCE and has thrown more attempts FOUR times.

    Ben was on pace for similar effectiveness to 07 but with WAY less sacks under Haley.

    The "dink and dunk" was working.

    Think about it. Due to the battered oline the run game was useless and you cannot give Ben time.
    Haley looks at the situation and does the only logical thing.
    Now, your'e getting carried away with that last sentence, crediting him with an adjustment for situations that are innacurate... the dink and dunk was the plan BEFORE injuries or inefective run game. That was NOT an in season adjustment to what was going on.

    In fact, i contend that the dink and dunk encourages the secondary to cheat up, making it more difficult to run. in other words, the ineffective run game may well have been a result of the gameplan. when they add another occasional downfield throw this year (and hopefully have a healthier o-line) the run game will improve...

    totally random realization... I have no idea which 2 games you referred to with only 1 rushing first down... Because of your dislike for me mentioning stats that excluded Ben, I can only assume that you are referring to games with Ben in them, not Batch/Leftwich games. For that matter, I can further assume that they happened in the midst of the first 8 games because those are the games in question here - Ben's injury games don't count... If not, nice to meet ya, kettle...

    but, this horse is dead... chicken or egg... we could go round and round... looks like another agree to disagree.

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