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Thread: Why Was Ben Having a Pro Bowl Caliber Season Last Year?

  1. #21
    First of all... Ben wasn't having a pro bowl caliber season... he was having one of HIS better seasons... but, he wouldn't have beat out Manning, Brady or any of the other bozos that made it. His numbers weren't THAT good -- the league was up as a whole when it comes to passing and I woudl guess he was sitting at about 5th or so in the AFC...

    I find it amusing how we drift between "compare him to only past versions of HIMSELF" but, "the only variable you're allowed to change is the OC when we say so"... and we don't care that the league as a whole had improved passing numbers... that's not a variable at all... at least not this year.So, first, let me rephrase the question...

    Q: "Why was Ben having arguably HIS best season?"
    A: "There are a number of factors, including, but, not limited to: a new OC, a struggling running game that forced the team to pass more, and some early season games where the team was forced to pass due to situation (like 384, 4TDs in a loss to the raiders and 363 in a loss to the Titans). If fantasy football has taught us all one thing... it's good for your QB to trail late in a game... it's good for your RB to be ahead. One team is airing it out, the other is milking the clock. Starting a season with 3 losses in 5 games will work wonders for your stats if you're even average...

    So, my answer is: OC, struggling running game, "game situation".

    ANOTHER (related) QUESTION. In the past, we talked proudly about YPA (Yards Per Attempt) with Ben... He was always among the league leaders, regardless of OC (whiz, arians, etc).

    Did he remain among the league leaders? Those who are estute in math, realize this isn't just factor of deep passes - if I go 10-for-10 on 6 yard passes, or 1-for-10 on 60 yard passes, i have the same YPA. Ideally, you want a nice balance of high-percentage passes, mixed in with a few calculated risks.

    To me, it FELT like a much smaller YPA than usual. His completion percentage didn't seem significantly higher than the rest of his career...there were just a lot of shorter passes. People are acting like they never hit 3rd down, but, it didn't feel like that was significantly improved.. (OK, with that thought, i have to look this up and add to reply, but, i'm not rewriting - nice "flow of thought")
    Career 2012 2011
    Completion Percentage 63.1 63.3 63.2
    YPA 7.93* 7.27 8.23
    TEAM FIRST DOWNS 307 341
    * This number is slightly over 8, excluding 2012.

    I'm even blown away by the last one - I would have expected the dink and dunk to have netted more first downs. I guess it proves what i was thinking and where i was going with the YPA and completion percentage, though... The only thing that offense managed to do - was eliminate the deep ball. It didn't improve his completion percentage. It didn't net more first downs. And it obviously didn't keep him safe. Whew... I'm exhausted. But, I've totally convinced myself of what *i* saw to be exactly what happened...

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...roethlisberger (Ben's stats)
    http://www.steelers.com/team/statistics.html (Team stats)
    Last edited by SteelerOfDeVille; 06-07-2013 at 02:44 PM.

  2. #22
    We can explain away Ben's first 8 games (which were exceptional btw) with any sort of reasoning we wish. The fact is this, Ben was having HIS best season before injury. And I would actually think a poor ground game would actually damage his ability to throw, not the other way around. He was having HIS best season in a new system, with new terminology, and with Wallace not playing anywhere near 100%. I can only guess Ben being more comfortable and having more say will jump to that next level this season. IMO, MUCH of that can be attributed to Haley. But, I'm sure when Ben comes out hot, there will be some that say he is doing it despite Haley...not because of Haley.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    We can explain away Ben's first 8 games (which were exceptional btw) with any sort of reasoning we wish. The fact is this, Ben was having HIS best season before injury. And I would actually think a poor ground game would actually damage his ability to throw, not the other way around. He was having HIS best season in a new system, with new terminology, and with Wallace not playing anywhere near 100%. I can only guess Ben being more comfortable and having more say will jump to that next level this season. IMO, MUCH of that can be attributed to Haley. But, I'm sure when Ben comes out hot, there will be some that say he is doing it despite Haley...not because of Haley.
    Proof as follows:

    Before his Week 10 shoulder and rib woes, however, he was on pace for 4,406 passing yards, 32 TDs, eight INTs and a 67 percent completion rate.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/5...roethlisberger

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    First of all... Ben wasn't having a pro bowl caliber season... he was having one of HIS better seasons... but, he wouldn't have beat out Manning, Brady or any of the other bozos that made it. His numbers weren't THAT good -- the league was up as a whole when it comes to passing and I woudl guess he was sitting at about 5th or so in the AFC...

    I find it amusing how we drift between "compare him to only past versions of HIMSELF" but, "the only variable you're allowed to change is the OC when we say so"... and we don't care that the league as a whole had improved passing numbers... that's not a variable at all... at least not this year.So, first, let me rephrase the question...

    Q: "Why was Ben having arguably HIS best season?"
    A: "There are a number of factors, including, but, not limited to: a new OC, a struggling running game that forced the team to pass more, and some early season games where the team was forced to pass due to situation (like 384, 4TDs in a loss to the raiders and 363 in a loss to the Titans). If fantasy football has taught us all one thing... it's good for your QB to trail late in a game... it's good for your RB to be ahead. One team is airing it out, the other is milking the clock. Starting a season with 3 losses in 5 games will work wonders for your stats if you're even average...

    So, my answer is: OC, struggling running game, "game situation".

    ANOTHER (related) QUESTION. In the past, we talked proudly about YPA (Yards Per Attempt) with Ben... He was always among the league leaders, regardless of OC (whiz, arians, etc).

    Did he remain among the league leaders? Those who are estute in math, realize this isn't just factor of deep passes - if I go 10-for-10 on 6 yard passes, or 1-for-10 on 60 yard passes, i have the same YPA. Ideally, you want a nice balance of high-percentage passes, mixed in with a few calculated risks.

    To me, it FELT like a much smaller YPA than usual. His completion percentage didn't seem significantly higher than the rest of his career...there were just a lot of shorter passes. People are acting like they never hit 3rd down, but, it didn't feel like that was significantly improved.. (OK, with that thought, i have to look this up and add to reply, but, i'm not rewriting - nice "flow of thought")
    Career 2012 2011
    Completion Percentage 63.1 63.3 63.2
    YPA 7.93* 7.27 8.23
    TEAM FIRST DOWNS 307 341
    * This number is slightly over 8, excluding 2012.

    I'm even blown away by the last one - I would have expected the dink and dunk to have netted more first downs. I guess it proves what i was thinking and where i was going with the YPA and completion percentage, though... The only thing that offense managed to do - was eliminate the deep ball. It didn't improve his completion percentage. It didn't net more first downs. And it obviously didn't keep him safe. Whew... I'm exhausted. But, I've totally convinced myself of what *i* saw to be exactly what happened...

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...roethlisberger (Ben's stats)
    http://www.steelers.com/team/statistics.html (Team stats)
    You mix team stats (total first downs despite a horrid run game) Those stats include the horrid stretch when Ben was out
    Ben's entire season stats (when the topic is pre-injury)

    Pre injury he was on pace for 4,406 passing yards, 32 TDs, eight INTs and a 67 percent completion rate.

    I dont even care about the yardage numbers, (the only ones affected by having to pass more).

    Ben had a much higher pass percentage, TD "percentage", lower int percentage, fewer sacks, and was in EVERY WAY playing better than he had in YEARS pre-injury.
    I do contend that Bens best season was Arians 1st season before the young money crew got Arians and Ben thinking long ball way too much.
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 06-07-2013 at 03:28 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    Proof as follows:

    Before his Week 10 shoulder and rib woes, however, he was on pace for 4,406 passing yards, 32 TDs, eight INTs and a 67 percent completion rate.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/5...roethlisberger
    And that is elite by anyones playbook.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    You mix team stats (total first downs despite a horrid run game) Those stats include the horrid stretch when Ben was out
    Ben's entire season stats (when the topic is pre-injury)

    Pre injury he was on pace for 4,406 passing yards, 32 TDs, eight INTs and a 67 percent completion rate.

    I dont even care about the yardage numbers, (the only ones affected by having to pass more).

    Ben had a much higher pass percentage, TD "percentage", lower int percentage, fewer sacks, and was in EVERY WAY playing better than he had in YEARS pre-injury.
    I do contend that Bens best season was Arians 1st season before the young money crew got Arians and Ben thinking long ball way too much.
    I think you're both a little right. Like the good captain points out, he was on an incredible pace with high TDs and low int %s. But like SOD was saying his YPA bottomed out and I do think the bad overall team performance meant he had to throw more and we were down at the end of some games and the league is a changing.

    I asked the question because the answer feels a little confusing depending on how I look at Ben's performance. I still feel just as confused about the answer as I did before I asked the question. But thanks for sharing these perspectives.

    Maybe we'll all learn a little more as we go into this season. Maybe Ben and Haley just need time together to figure out the secret sauce.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by flippy View Post
    I think you're both a little right. Like the good captain points out, he was on an incredible pace with high TDs and low int %s. But like SOD was saying his YPA bottomed out and I do think the bad overall team performance meant he had to throw more and we were down at the end of some games and the league is a changing.

    I asked the question because the answer feels a little confusing depending on how I look at Ben's performance. I still feel just as confused about the answer as I did before I asked the question. But thanks for sharing these perspectives.

    Maybe we'll all learn a little more as we go into this season. Maybe Ben and Haley just need time together to figure out the secret sauce.
    If by "Both" you mean me a Shawn....yes, we are both right.

    Flippy your question was "why" was Ben having a great season.
    SOD is not addressing that question, he is making a case that we are overselling how well Ben was playing.

    Flippy look at the chart he posted. One season to the next, we arent goig back a decade.
    I am not talking about how MUCH yards he threw for. That is meaningless.
    A 32 TD to 8 int pace- That matters.

    I want EFFECTIVE passing.
    As I demonstated at length, the shorter passing LED to Ben's amzing 3rd down efficiency.
    Even missing three games Ben STILL threw is most TDs since 07.
    You think that is due to attempt?
    Due to his missing games his pass attempt went DOWN and he STILL threw 26 TDs up from 21 in 2011.
    Ben has bested the 26 TD passes last year only ONCE ever. Ben has had more attempts than this year many times.

    The league is changing? Well passing records were broken by Brady and Brees in 2011 not in 2012.
    Yet Ben got better BY FAR in 2013 especially before the injury.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    If by "Both" you mean me a Shawn....yes, we are both right.

    Flippy your question was "why" was Ben having a great season.
    SOD is not addressing that question, he is making a case that we are overselling how well Ben was playing.

    Flippy look at the chart he posted. One season to the next, we arent goig back a decade.
    I am not talking about how MUCH yards he threw for. That is meaningless.
    A 32 TD to 8 int pace- That matters.

    I want EFFECTIVE passing.
    As I demonstated at length, the shorter passing LED to Ben's amzing 3rd down efficiency.
    Even missing three games Ben STILL threw is most TDs since 07.
    You think that is due to attempt?
    Due to his missing games his pass attempt went DOWN and he STILL threw 26 TDs up from 21 in 2011.
    Ben has bested the 26 TD passes last year only ONCE ever. Ben has had more attempts than this year many times.

    The league is changing? Well passing records were broken by Brady and Brees in 2011 not in 2012.
    Yet Ben got better BY FAR in 2013 especially before the injury.
    +1 Ben is better with the short passing than his fling it down the field insticts result in. The former is much better for the team because it keps the chains moving and wears down the opponents defense.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  9. #29
    Don't get me wrong, I want Ben to throw the rock downfield. But, I just don't want it to be a crutch or his bread n butter. You need a deep ball to take the top off. If you are running the ball well, and able to make the opposition respect your deep ball...you become very difficult to stop.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I want Ben to throw the rock downfield. But, I just don't want it to be a crutch or his bread n butter. You need a deep ball to take the top off. If you are running the ball well, and able to make the opposition respect your deep ball...you become very difficult to stop.
    I think you need the threat of the longball but you don't have to use it that often. I think you do much more waering down a defense but a consistent and effective short passing game which gets the LBs turning their backs to the LOS. This in turn keeps them off your QB and opens up lanes for the running game.

    The longball is a low percentage play and while your WR is coming all the way back up field the defense gets time to reset and sub. Much harder to do when you are running a high tempo short passing attack.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

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