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Thread: Steelers select Markus Wheaton in the third

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by RuthlessBurgher View Post
    Tell me. What do you do with offensive coordinators?

    Burn!
    Burn!
    Burn! Burn them up! Burn!...

    And what do you burn apart from offensive coordinators?

    More offensive coordinators!
    Shh!
    Wood!

    So, why do offensive coordinators burn?

    B--... 'cause they're made of... wood?

    Good! Heh heh.

    Oh, yeah. Oh.

    So, how do we tell whether he is made of wood?

    Build a bridge out of him.

    Ah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone?

    Oh, yeah.
    Oh, yeah. True. Uhh...

    Does wood sink in water?

    No. No.
    No, it floats! It floats!
    Throw him into the pond!
    The pond! Throw him into the pond!

    What also floats in water?

    Bread!
    Apples!
    Uh, very small rocks!
    Cider!
    Uh, gra-- gravy!
    Cherries!
    Mud!
    Uh, churches! Churches!
    Lead! Lead!

    A duck!

    Oooh.

    Exactly. So, logically...

    If... he... weighs... the same as a duck,... he's made of wood.

    And therefore?

    An offensive coordinator!
    in that case... burn him!!

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    Dink and dunk mean fewer sack, higher percentage, easy 1st down pickups.

    "Magic" is easier when you arent facing 3rd and 10 or more all the time
    Totally agree. The so called "dink and dunk" is a high probability of success offense that keeps the ball moving, gives us possession time and keeps the opposing defense on the field for long periods of time.

    I would rather do that every play than see low probability of success long throws down the field.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

    2014 Draft

    1. Eric Ebron, TE
    2. Calvin Pryor, S
    3 (Comp). Jaylen Watkins, CB
    4. Justin Ellis, DT/NT
    5a. Brandon Coleman, WR
    5b. Brent Urban, DE
    6. Prince Shembo, OLB
    7a. Aaron Colvin, CB
    7b. Storm Johnson, RB

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    Dink and dunk mean fewer sack, higher percentage, easy 1st down pickups.

    "Magic" is easier when you arent facing 3rd and 10 or more all the time
    we didn't face 3rd and 10's all the time under BA and we definitely weren't in 3rd and 3's all the time with Haley.

  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    but, to say it has zero impact? that's like saying going from 12 games to 16 games wouldn't lead to more 1000-yard rushers... you'd be ignoring facts...
    The benefit of the new rules are felt on shorter routes.
    They make NO DIFFERENCE when a receiver gets behind coverage.
    Shorter routes become even more higher percentage plays because the fear of getting hit and the ability to seperate the receiver from the ball via a big hit are reduced greatly.

    Thus it is the combination of the rule changes AND playcalling THAT BEST TAKES ADVANTAGE of those changes that created Ben's fast start.

    BA's play calling style benefits very little from the changes thus one could assume no great change in Ben's effectiveness based on rules.

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    we didn't face 3rd and 10's all the time under BA and we definitely weren't in 3rd and 3's all the time with Haley.
    You are absolutely correct, I agree.
    Arians did dink and dunk versus NE and killed then with it. Then he went back to his normal playcalling.
    Ben took shots at the deep ball too last season under Haley, which nobody mentions. Just less often.

    What we are discussing are not absolutes but tendancies and hanging on to the ball to throw relatively low percentage bombs as a matter of routine leads to more sacks, lower percent completions and more frequent 3rd and very long scenarios. Ben had a lower percent of those, more easily converted 3rd and 3s and could dump to Miller ALL DAY LONG to convert.

    Dizz, what amazes me is that you led the "Ben holds the ball too long" outcry forver, you know what I am saying.

    Here Haley has implemented an offense that does what you in fact predicted (fewer sacks, check downs to get something etc) and you are now on the other side of the debate?
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 05-17-2013 at 02:18 PM.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    You are absolutely correct, I agree.
    Arians did dink and dunk versus NE and killed then with it. Then he went back to his normal playcalling.
    Ben took shots at the deep ball too last season under Haley, which nobody mentions. Just less often.

    What we are discussing are not absolutes but tendancies and hanging on to the ball to throw relatively low percentage bombs as a matter of routine leads to more sacks, lower percent completions and more frequent 3rd and very long scenarios. Ben had a lower percent of those, more easily converted 3rd and 3s and could dump to Miller ALL DAY LONG to convert.

    Dizz, what amazes me is that you led the "Ben holds the ball too long" outcry forver, you know what I am saying.

    Here Haley has implemented an offense that does what you in fact predicted (fewer sacks, check downs to get something etc) and you are now on the other side of the debate?
    I was always a "take what the D gives" kind of guy...

    The NE game plan wasn't dink and dunk... it was throwing to the wide open guy underneath instead of waiting until the DL was draped on his back.

    I've always been a "get rid of it" when there is a wide open guy in the flat... however, this doesn't mean I didn't like the long pass routes and deep passes. I still think that's where Ben and the WR's excel. My issue has always been when Ben takes unnecessary hits or refuses to dump it off to a wide open guy in the flat because he wants the deep ball.

  7. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    The NE game plan wasn't dink and dunk... it was throwing to the wide open guy underneath instead of waiting until the DL was draped on his back.
    No dizz, this was a gameplan.....Ben does not simply decide to NOT do what he does routinely on the fly.
    Ben got the ball out of his hand quickly....DELIBERATELY.
    He was not running around and dumping off as a last resort.

    Here is the commentary at the time:

    "Roethlisberger completed 36 of 50 pass attempts and threw for 365 yards and two touchdowns in a strong 25-17 victory. The headline of this game is how the Steelers had possession of the ball for over 39 minutes and simply kept Brady in check by keeping him off the field. The Steelers instead took a page out the New England’s playbook and used short quick passes to move the chains all day. The Steelers converted on 10 of 16 third down plays and kept Brady and company on the sideline. Brady finished with a season low 198 yards but still threw two touchdown passes."


    This was a deliberate game plan to feature short passes.
    It has to be that because it aint Ben's style of play. If it WAS Ben who "learned" to dump the ball quicker he would have kept at it.

    And not surprisingly Ben was "magical" on third down that game too, when BA for once called a "Haleyesque" game.
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 05-17-2013 at 04:58 PM.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo View Post
    Totally agree. The so called "dink and dunk" is a high probability of success offense that keeps the ball moving, gives us possession time and keeps the opposing defense on the field for long periods of time.

    I would rather do that every play than see low probability of success long throws down the field.
    Dick Lebeau agrees with you from the perspective of this is the offense he wants his defense seeing week in and week out. Since he's been in the league, he's allowed teams to dink and dunk him to death to prevent the big play. Dinking and dunking keeps the other team in the game. Besides it's hard to dink and dunk in the RedZone.

    I haven't written Haley off by any means, but I think DL's defense perfectly aligns with Ben/BA's style of play taking chances downfield on offense. I didn't really want to see Haley overhaul the good pieces out of the offense. I just wanted him to get on Ben's case to figure out how not to cross his fine line and keep him healthy. And I want to see an improved OLine and running game to support the good things Ben's capable of doing.

    There's a lot of really good offenses that take a lot more shots down the field than we did with Haley/Ben. And the majority of those teams were in the playoffs.

    I'm not convinced a Dink and Dunk offense really works for many QBs besides Tom Brady.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    we didn't face 3rd and 10's all the time under BA and we definitely weren't in 3rd and 3's all the time with Haley.
    The Steelers averaged 2x as many 3rd and >10 yds under BA vs Haley. Under BA Ben only completed about 55% of those passes.

    Last season Ben completed an amazing 85% of passes on 3rd >10yds.

  10. #80
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    I don't really see the benefit of "keeping the other offense off the field" just from that perspective. Unless you work it out so that you have the last possession of each half, then the other team still has just as many opportunities to score points as you do.

    It all comes down to effectiveness. The dink and dunk is effective, therefore it puts that team in at least field goal position more often than other offenses.

    IMO, the only offense that nearly guarantees winning would be one that is capable of running some dink and dunk to get into FG range at least, and then has some home run hitters they can call on to get TD's from both inside and outside (20-35 yd range) of the redzone. You aren't going to win on time of possession alone, you are going to win by converting drives into points more often than the other team.

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