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Thread: Do not be fooled! Jarvis Jones is elite.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    You guys realize that one of the future rule changes doesn't involve "no defense" on the field... It's as if people think, "2013-2014 or bust... who cares if we don't have a defense in 2015 or 2016"..

    Re-read what ruthless said JPN... both were "need", but, one was "immediate", the other was "long-term". I would draft long term... that's the BPA philosophy, right? "We have Willie Parker, he's decent, but, Mendy's on the board and a top 10 talent, by many"... give it a shot...

    Specific players out of the equation for a moment...

    If there was an all-pro, hall-of fame, player that wouldn't start this year to be had at 1.17, I'd take him in a heartbeat, regardless of position. I care about the team being good EVERY year...

    Next player example...
    Many fans were ticked that the team didn't take Bryant Johnson the year they selected Polamalu. That year, he looked to be a solid up-and-comer, and quite possibly could have rocked with Big Ben as his QB... many years later, it's not even close. That's the pick I'd make over and over and over again... without hesitation... "long-term-solution", not flavor of the week.

    Now, if you're convinced that Eifert will be an All Pro for a decade to come, sign me up... I just haven't seen that out of him, IMO.
    Both were needs and both were long term & immediate. The Steelers had aging veterans Alexander and Logan on the roster up for contracts. They drafted Hope the year before. Much like this year. Edwards was a swing and miss. But like my response to RB ... Sometimes a need works out.

    You said the reason why I don't want Jones. I don't think he will be a hall of fame 3-4 OLB. I think he will be a disappointment based on a #17 pick.

    You can look at all my post. Everyone in here knows I'm about long term. My mocks are about long term. And that is another reason I'm not wasting a 1st on Jones. Worlds was drafted for the "future" when they moved on from Harrison. Time to use the investment. If Worilds booms...Wasted pick. You take a kid in the 2-4 range like a Collins, Lemonier, Williams, or a Simon. That's your insurance and depth. You use that pick to replace the depleted offensive production. You use that pick on a S who you will need for next year. Last resort...You use that pick on an ILB.

    I will be the first one on here to say I was wrong if they pick him at #17. How many of you are confident men you will come on here and do the same if Jones is on the board and they trade back or go another direction? We will see.
    Last edited by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY; 04-04-2013 at 07:49 PM.



  2. #52
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    I'm trying to the think of the last rookie on offense to really come in and blow the place up. Was it Ben? Miller? This crap about Defensive guys coming in and being sat for years is ludicrous. Some people have no idea how to run a team. These people are the same ones that want to move an all pro to guard because a guy in the draft can play center too. Would I take Jones? Wouldn't be my first choice. But I wouldn't watch him slide by because of some silly notion that only defensive guys sit.
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  3. #53
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    JPN I agree 100%. Some people on here would have passed on dirt dawson because we still had iron mike.
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  4. #54
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    If the Steelers draft Jones, it's not the death-knell for Worilds. It certainly puts pressure on Worilds, but also on Woodley. Could be that if Jones is drafted, it's not to replace Worilds, but for future Salary Cap reasons....
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    Quote Originally Posted by birtikidis View Post
    I'm trying to the think of the last rookie on offense to really come in and blow the place up. Was it Ben? Miller? This crap about Defensive guys coming in and being sat for years is ludicrous. Some people have no idea how to run a team. These people are the same ones that want to move an all pro to guard because a guy in the draft can play center too. Would I take Jones? Wouldn't be my first choice. But I wouldn't watch him slide by because of some silly notion that only defensive guys sit.
    Pouncey cant handle big NT. Its a given. I still think Pouncey is highly over-rated. He is not even the best center in AFCN.

    No one is asking them to blow the place up on defensive end but they rookies can't even contribute and the reason is defense is complex. Offensive players show up..Miller, Ben, Poumcey,Wallace,AB84,Adams.....higher picks do play more on offensive end.

    Worlids is in his last season..Now if he has 10 sack season Steelers can't sign him because his price is too high. Heyward does not have starting job and his contract will be up in a year. K-Lew left the place with one good season. Hood is a bust because we are trying to ask him to do something which is not his strong suite.

    Again i am a fan of Jarvis Jones...but yes question is can he contribute year one..??? No. With so many holes in this team Steelers need players who can contribute. No one is expecting All-Pro in rookie season but atleast show up on field and contribute.

    Steelers need a game changer at 17 not any run of the mill player.
    Steelers Draft
    Rd 1: Mike Evans - WR
    Rd 2: Kyle Van Noy - ILB/OLB
    Rd 3c: Philip Gaines - CB
    Rd 4: Taylor Hart - DE
    Rd 5: Justin Ellis - DT
    Rd 5c:Xavier Grimble -TE

  6. #56
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    Who did Adams have to beat out? Our offensive line has been terrible for a while so a youngster getting a shot there isn't a big deal. Gilbert only got a shot at RT when Colon went out for another season. Adams only had his shot when Gilbert went down for the season. Hell the FO had so little faith in either of those guys that they signed a guy they obviously didn't want on the team in Max Starks. What season would you have sat Deebo so that Worilds could have gotten more playing time? Ben wouldn't even have gotten a shot early if Maddox doesn't tear up his arm. Miller if I remember correctly didn't do a whole lot as a rookie. The only guy that came in and played great right off the bat is Pouncey who IS the best center in the AFC. The problem in my eyes isn't that they sit guys because they're young, it's that they keep playing guys past their prime. They do it on both sides of the ball. Aaron Smith easily went two years past his prime. Ward missed it by a year. Even Deebo may have lasted one too many years.
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  7. #57
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    Maybe it is unfair for me to brush off Jones without explaining my whole thought process. There is plenty of good tape on Jones. He has his flaws just like everyone else but I'm keeping things in perspective based on factors involving his age and who & when he played with. I'm comparing him to others at his ages and questions arise. Assuming all the information available to us is accurate...I have concerns. So lets dive in like a scout or FO ladies & gents. I'll let you in my head.

    For this example, I will use Moore because his stock has suffered a similiar fate this year.

    Stats will be (TT/TFL/SK).
    Moore:
    Age 18 - Starter 13 Games - 40/6.5/5.5
    Age 19 - Starter 12 Games - 72/17.5/8.5
    Age 20 - Starter 13 Games - 85/21/12.5

    Jones:
    Age 18 - HS
    Age 19 - HS
    Age 20 - Backup 8 Games - 13/1.5/0
    Age 21 - NCAA Transfer Rule Sit Out
    Age 22 - Starter 14 Games - 70/19.5/13.5
    Age 23 - Starter 12 Games - 85/24.5/14.5

    Does anyone else see a concern or a question come to mind? You could be certain the NFL scouts, coaches, FO people have some. Jarvis Jones graduated HS at 20? Acording to his rivals recruiting profile he commited & graduated in '09 and went to USC that fall. If Jarvis Jones will be 24 this year that makes him 20 in '09. There may be some extraordinary circumstances there. Maybe he started school late. We don't have that information but be sure the NFL people do. I can & have made an assumption.

    So as a 20 year old FR in '09, Jones didn't start and managed 13/1.5/0. In comparison, Moore as a 20 year old managed to start 13 games with 85/21/12.5. Not fair? Ok...As an 18 year old FR Moore has 13 games with 40/6.5/5.5. Jones was still in HS at 19 & 20.

    I'm a fair guy. Lets look at Jones at USC his 20 year old freshman year. He was playing in the Pac 12 not the SEC so he should of dominated right? He only had a RFR named Nick Perry 25/10/9 & a JR Everson Griffin 44/8.5/7 in front of him to beat out. He didn't win either of the starting spots. Griffin was a 4th round pick. In 3 years he played in 43 games with 1 start. He has 12 sacks in 3 years. Perry was a 1st round pick last year. He only played in 6 games starting 5 before he was IR with knee injury.

    So Jones transfers & sits out '10. He has eye popping stats & tape in '11 & '12 as a 22 & 23 year old in college. Perspective? Man amongst boys argument? Surrounding talent argument? Jones is a 23 year old running around on the field with 18-21 year olds. Doesn't matter perhaps...But you would get an argument. Aldon Smith recorded 14 sacks & 19.5 sacks as a 22 & 23 year old in the NFL. Von Miller recorded 11.5 sacks & 18.5 sacks as a 22 & 23 year old in the NFL. A matter of perspective when you take things into account.

    Just for the hell of it I went back to 2007 and took the top two SEC sack leaders to see how the "elite" tell all conference fairs since doing it in the SEC is the bar. Jake Bequette, Melvin Ingram, Nick Fairley, Justin Houston, Antonio Coleman, Carlos Dunlap, Eric Norwood, Greg Hardy, & Marcus Howard. In the NFL...They collectively played in 206 games starting 63 with 63.5 sacks. Houston, Dunlap, & Hardy are the only ones with double digit sacks which Dunlap leads with 20 in 3 years. Some of them aren't in the NFL anymore. I agree 110% that the SEC is the most competitive conference and the most talent comes out of it. They are the biggest conference with 14 teams and the most NFL style run systems & coaches. You just can't put that up on the pedestal as you "tell all". The most may be coming out of there by a far but that doesn't mean the best players come from there. There is talent all over the country. "Stats" in the SEC get noticed but that doesn't shade a players production in another conference. You could dig deep and find individual efforts against NFL caliber players or SEC teams and evaluate. There could be as many as 9 1st round pass rushers taken in this draft. 3 of the 9 are from the SEC. Like I said...Talent all over the country.
    Last edited by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY; 04-05-2013 at 11:46 AM.



  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by grotonsteel View Post
    Pouncey cant handle big NT. Its a given. I still think Pouncey is highly over-rated. He is not even the best center in AFCN.

    No one is asking them to blow the place up on defensive end but they rookies can't even contribute and the reason is defense is complex. Offensive players show up..Miller, Ben, Poumcey,Wallace,AB84,Adams.....higher picks do play more on offensive end.

    Worlids is in his last season..Now if he has 10 sack season Steelers can't sign him because his price is too high. Heyward does not have starting job and his contract will be up in a year. K-Lew left the place with one good season. Hood is a bust because we are trying to ask him to do something which is not his strong suite.

    Again i am a fan of Jarvis Jones...but yes question is can he contribute year one..??? No. With so many holes in this team Steelers need players who can contribute. No one is expecting All-Pro in rookie season but atleast show up on field and contribute.

    Steelers need a game changer at 17 not any run of the mill player.
    If Worilds has a double sack output...He isn't going anywhere.



  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY View Post
    Just for the hell of it I went back to 2007 and took the top two SEC sack leaders to see how the "elite" tell all conference fairs since doing it in the SEC is the bar. Jake Bequette, Melvin Ingram, Nick Fairley, Justin Houston, Antonio Coleman, Carlos Dunlap, Eric Norwood, Greg Hardy, & Marcus Howard. In the NFL...They collectively played in 206 games starting 63 with 63.5 sacks. Houston, Dunlap, & Hardy are the only ones with double digit sacks which Dunlap leads with 20 in 3 years. Some of them aren't in the NFL anymore. I agree 110% that the SEC is the most competitive conference and the most talent comes out of it. They are the biggest conference with 14 teams and the most NFL style run systems & coaches. You just can't put that up on the pedestal as you "tell all". The most may be coming out of there by a far but that doesn't mean the best players come from there. There is talent all over the country. "Stats" in the SEC get noticed but that doesn't shade a players production in another conference. You could dig deep and find individual efforts against NFL caliber players or SEC teams and evaluate. There could be as many as 9 1st round pass rushers taken in this draft. 3 of the 9 are from the SEC. Like I said...Talent all over the country.
    On this... I definitely agree. It's real hard to predict how players in the SEC will pan out in the NFL. When teams are stacked with talent it's hard to judge how they will pan out at the next level.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY View Post
    Maybe it is unfair for me to brush off Jones without explaining my whole thought process. There is plenty of good tape on Jones. He has his flaws just like everyone else but I'm keeping things in perspective based on factors involving his age and who & when he played with. I'm comparing him to others at his ages and questions arise. Assuming all the information available to us is accurate...I have concerns. So lets dive in like a scout or FO ladies & gents. I'll let you in my head.

    For this example, I will use Moore because his stock has suffered a similiar fate this year.

    Stats will be (TT/TFL/SK).
    Moore:
    Age 18 - Starter 13 Games - 40/6.5/5.5
    Age 19 - Starter 12 Games - 72/17.5/8.5
    Age 20 - Starter 13 Games - 85/21/12.5

    Jones:
    Age 18 - HS
    Age 19 - HS
    Age 20 - Backup 8 Games - 13/1.5/0
    Age 21 - NCAA Transfer Rule Sit Out
    Age 22 - Starter 14 Games - 70/19.5/13.5
    Age 23 - Starter 12 Games - 85/24.5/14.5

    Does anyone else see a concern or a question come to mind? You could be certain the NFL scouts, coaches, FO people have some. Jarvis Jones graduated HS at 20? Acording to his rivals profile he commited & graduated in '09 and went to USC that fall. If Jarvis Jones will be 24 this year that makes him 20 in '09. There may be some extraordinary circumstances there. Maybe he started school late. We don't have that information but be sure the NFL people do. I can & have made an assumption.

    So as a 20 year old FR in '09, Jones didn't start and managed 13/1.5/0. In comparison, Moore as a 20 year old managed to start 13 games with 85/21/12.5. Not fair? Ok...As an 18 year old FR Moore has 13 games with 40/6.5/5.5. Jones was still in HS at 19 & 20.

    I'm a fair guy. Lets look at Jones at USC his 20 year old freshman year. He was playing in the Pac 12 not the SEC so he should of dominated right? He only had a RFR named Nick Perry 25/10/9 & a JR Everson Griffin 44/8.5/7 in front of him to beat out. He didn't win either of the starting spots. Griffin was a 4th round pick. In 3 years he played in 43 games with 1 start. He has 12 sacks in 3 years. Perry was a 1st round pick last year. He only played in 6 games starting 5 before he was IR with knee injury.

    So Jones transfers & sits out '10. He has eye popping stats & tape in '11 & '12 as a 22 & 23 year old in college. Perspective? Man amongst boys argument? Surrounding talent argument? Jones is a 23 year old running around on the field with 18-21 year olds. Doesn't matter perhaps...But you would get an argument. Aldon Smith recorded 14 sacks & 19.5 sacks as a 22 & 23 year old in the NFL. Von Miller recorded 11.5 sacks & 18.5 sacks as a 22 & 23 year old in the NFL. A matter of perspective when you take things into account.

    Just for the hell of it I went back to 2007 and took the top two SEC sack leaders to see how the "elite" tell all conference fairs since doing it in the SEC is the bar. Jake Bequette, Melvin Ingram, Nick Fairley, Justin Houston, Antonio Coleman, Carlos Dunlap, Eric Norwood, Greg Hardy, & Marcus Howard. In the NFL...They collectively played in 206 games starting 63 with 63.5 sacks. Houston, Dunlap, & Hardy are the only ones with double digit sacks which Dunlap leads with 20 in 3 years. Some of them aren't in the NFL anymore. I agree 110% that the SEC is the most competitive conference and the most talent comes out of it. They are the biggest conference with 14 teams and the most NFL style run systems & coaches. You just can't put that up on the pedestal as you "tell all". The most may be coming out of there by a far but that doesn't mean the best players come from there. There is talent all over the country. "Stats" in the SEC get noticed but that doesn't shade a players production in another conference. You could dig deep and find individual efforts against NFL caliber players or SEC teams and evaluate. There could be as many as 9 1st round pass rushers taken in this draft. 3 of the 9 are from the SEC. Like I said...Talent all over the country.
    Good writeup JPN, thanks.

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