Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 34

Thread: Development, Not Drafting, Problem for Steelers in Tomlin Era

  1. #21
    Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,261
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    again, read the post above... it happens everywhere... the steelers are actually pretty well above average when it comes to finding players...
    Yea, but you didn't mention this:

    The Steelers have only drafted nine Pro Bowl players, including two between rounds five and seven. However, even more surprising is that Pittsburgh has only drafted four All-Pro players. Only 16 teams had fewer All-Pro players than the Steelers, despite Pittsburgh having above-average success in recent years.
    So they have found some starters, but they are not special or even above average. Good coaching and gameplanning can make a difference. Again, I point to what Lake has done with the CBs in such a short time. Between rumored locker room issues, player misconduct, and young money attitudes, I fear the HC has failed to instill the proper atmosphere around the team. Maybe the drafting has contributed by taking 'risky' players, who knows. Every season is different, and Tomlin is likely still learning how to handle adversity. I am not ready to run him out of town yet, but there is room for improvement.

  2. #22
    Hall of Famer Mister Pittsburgh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    3,678
    I think part of it is the positions they are drafting in the early rounds. Is it wise to draft two 3-4 DE's in the first round out of three drafts? Their predecessors were late round picks and a cheap free agent (A.Smith, Keisel, KVO). Is it wise to draft a RB in the first round when he is the 4th RB off the board and its a deep RB class (there were 3 or 4 backs in that draft taken after Mendy that have outperformed him...namely Ray Rice, Jamaal Charles). I personally would of never taken a 3-4 DE in round 1 unless they were a no doubt 100% animal. I would never take a RB in the first round period, especially when you are thin at other positions.
    @_Hellgrammite

  3. #23
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    14,665
    Quote Originally Posted by NW Steeler View Post
    Only 8 of 33 drafted remain? That seems horrid. I wonder how that compares to the rest of the league?
    It does seem horrid until you compare our success to other teams during that time span.

  4. #24
    Guys, of course i read the article... I'm married... selective exclusion!!

    But, "middle of the bunch with all pro"... it's not "terrible", it's not great... it's average... and i wonder about the wording... "only 16 are have had fewer" means there were likely a handful of teams who were tied... for example, "tied for 10th" sound significantly different, doesn't it?

    Anyway, the biggest point is they've drafted more starters than all teams in the NFL except one. that means they're drafting just fine...
    2013 MNF Executive Champion!
    Team Needs, 2015 Draft (In order of need): CB, NT, OLB, FS, DE

  5. #25
    Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,779
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Pittsburgh View Post
    I think part of it is the positions they are drafting in the early rounds. Is it wise to draft two 3-4 DE's in the first round out of three drafts? Their predecessors were late round picks and a cheap free agent (A.Smith, Keisel, KVO). Is it wise to draft a RB in the first round when he is the 4th RB off the board and its a deep RB class (there were 3 or 4 backs in that draft taken after Mendy that have outperformed him...namely Ray Rice, Jamaal Charles). I personally would of never taken a 3-4 DE in round 1 unless they were a no doubt 100% animal. I would never take a RB in the first round period, especially when you are thin at other positions.
    +1

    Really hard to justify two Rd 1 3-4 DEs especially when they are told to occupy two blockers and not pressurize the QB. One can get those DEs in mid-rounds.

    Hood is a 4-3 DT and Heyward in his 3rd year yet to start. Luxury picks and they are not panning out that well.
    Steelers Draft
    Rd 1: Mike Evans - WR
    Rd 2: Kyle Van Noy - ILB/OLB
    Rd 3c: Philip Gaines - CB
    Rd 4: Taylor Hart - DE
    Rd 5: Justin Ellis - DT
    Rd 5c:Xavier Grimble -TE

  6. #26
    Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,261
    I also have been wondering about the Steelers talent evaluation org. We rarely hear them mentioned, but the scout staff is a pretty important part of the org. Has there been a transition there as well? Do they have a bunch of new, inexperienced guys? The scout staff makes their money on Day 2, not Day 1. They are the ones that are bringing talent to the attention of Colbert. It is ultimately Colbert's decisions, but if the players are not "sold" to the org, they don't get picked.

    Other thing I would mention, don't discount the coaching. Look no further than SF, tons of high draft picks, mired in mediocrity. Guys like Singletary, Nolan, Erickson, didn't do squat.... until Harbaugh shows up, and now they are in the SB.

  7. #27
    Administrator steelz09's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    3,648
    I agree with a lot of posts from above... just don't want to quote each one.

    I'm not a Tomlin hater although I questioned a lot of his game management this year and draft picks in his era including Timmons ever since he was drafted. I also thought he was to "buddy, buddy" with his players and that is why I liked how he put his foot down for the first time in his Steelers coaching career this year although the lack of discipline continued.

    I (like most) thought 2008 was a solid draft (especially pick 1 and 2) but obviously everyone including the Steelers were dead wrong.

    My #1 problem with Tomlin as a coaching is simple..... WHAT IN GODS NAME IS THE PLAN OF THIS TEAM?!?! Get a plan and execute it. He's all over the map. I don't think Cowher and Colbert were all over the map like Tomlin and Colbert are.

    1) Is it smart to draft 2 first round defense ends? In a 4-3? Yes. In a 3-4? No. A first round NT? YES!

    2) Timmons drafted as a 3-4 OLB = FAIL and he was drafted to be a OLB. They got a bit lucky that he was able to convert inside . Conversion to a 3-4 ILB took several years (not surprising) and by the time he saw the light, he was due for a monster contract which he got. That is a hell of a risk to take when your drafting so high.

    3) Get younger is the strategy, right? Keeping Ike at his salary over Lewis? CB was not a big need at all if Lewis is signed long term and Allen to follow. Now it is a need along with several other positions.

    4) Freeney, Urlacher? Again, I thought we wanted to get younger? #1 these aren't good 3-4 fits. #2 they are old. Why sign Urlacher when you already signed Foote? Tomlin and Co. basically said they are going to roll with Worilds as the starter and feel he's ready. Ok... Then why look at Dumervil and Freeney? Add to that, why not just keep Harrison? Harrison for 1 more year is probably better than those two options.

    5) Jake Long = Pipe Dream. If you aren't happy with your LT situation, sign a guy that is only 31, has a ton of experience, is cheaper and has been one of our most consistent (and underrated) players... Max Starks. Oh, and he's a leader and has a great relationship with your franchise QB.

    6) David Johnson again? Really? Add that to the list. Will Johnson > DJ. And you have Spaeth and Paulson. That is 4 TEs not including WJ. While I'm addressing the TE situation, how dumb was it to release Saunders. Saunders > Paulson, Spaeth, DJ, WJ especially as a pass catching threat.

    7) Why not put Leftwich on the IR last year and keep Brian Hoyer if they liked him so much?

    What were they thinking of signing Breaston and letting go of Cotchery? What do you gain with that? Cotchery isn't bad. Breaston (not young). I don't mind the Plax signing for depth reasons but I just don't get why you would sign Breaston and possibly release Cotchery.

    9) Why does it seem like Tomlin is drafting 4-3 players instead of 3-4 players when Tomlin has basically said... you don't fix what ain't broke. If you aren't going to switch to a 4-3 then STOP DRAFTING 4-3 LBers and 1st round DEs!!!

    10) I really like Spence but quite honestly, he's extremely undersized to play 3-4 ILB.... He's a instinctive "run and hit" type player which Tomlin likes (i.e. Timmons). Problem is.... 3-4 requires the ability to take on and disengage blocks while also reading the play. At Spence's size, a OG will swallow him up. He might be able to gain SIGNIFICANT bulk and transition to a 3-4 but hopefully he doesn't lose his speed in the process. This assumes he can come back from his injury.

    11) Suisham is overpaid and like I said, we'll never win a SB with him as a kicker.

    12) Who is the future NT of this team? Tomlin mentioned Hood could play NT. Does Tomlin evaluate each game on tape? Hood has a hard enough time taking up 2 blocks as a DE. He thinks he won't get pushed back at NT? That's laughable. IMO, McClendon might be the answer, or maybe Ta'amu (i liked the pick) or maybe Fangupo... I honestly don't think Tomlin knows who the hell he wants as the future NT because he's all over the map. I hate how he switches these players around like LEGOs. It's one thing to be a dynamic player and learn multiple positions especially if you already excel at 1. But these guys are far from perfecting 1 position let alone 2. Let them focus on 1 position first and foremost. Not being able to identify your future NT is a MAJOR problem in a 3-4.

    I've babbled on enough about this.... At the end of the day, it's not necessarily Tomlin intelligence or coaching in my opinion. I don't think he knows what the hell he wants and he lacks a long term plan. How can you successfully build a team by singing your players and/or FAs, draft well and develop your talent if you don't have a long term plan. Develop a plan and execute the draft, FA, etc to meet that plan.

  8. #28
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    13,846
    Quote Originally Posted by grotonsteel View Post
    +1

    Really hard to justify two Rd 1 3-4 DEs especially when they are told to occupy two blockers and not pressurize the QB. One can get those DEs in mid-rounds.

    Hood is a 4-3 DT and Heyward in his 3rd year yet to start. Luxury picks and they are not panning out that well.

    Put them in the right scheme and both will thrive. Don't even change to a 4-3 but change to a scheme that allows our DL to shoot the gaps and penetrate versus occupy blockers and I think both Hood and Heyward would thrive. It isn't the players its what they are being told to do.

    Watch Ziggy's work out videos from last off season and see the athleticism he possesses then we have a Def Coord that essentially tells him to play a way that nullifies that same athleticism. Just plain dumb but why change to adjust to maximize the skills of your players when you have your template.
    Last edited by Oviedo; 03-29-2013 at 12:46 PM.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  9. #29
    Administrator steelz09's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    3,648
    If you shoot the gaps, teams will run right into the teeth of that essentially exposing that whole strategy.

    Or, you could run a 3-4 the right way... Have your LINEBACKERS get pressure on the QB. That assumes your DE's and NT's require 2 blockers. If they don't, your pretty much screwed. Hood and an old Hampton do not require 2 blockers.

    Check out this swiss cheese defensive line:


  10. #30
    Hall of Famer Mister Pittsburgh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    3,678
    With Lebeau having this specialized 3-4, how much is he involved in the evaluation and drafting of players? Under Ray Horton it seemed that hardly any DB we drafted developed. We bring in Carnell and suddenly Willie Gay and Keenan Lewis look as if they are solid CB's. Lebeau is a HOF CB and such a genius DC yet it takes a switch at secondary coach to develop players? With Tomlin's experience as a DB coach with Tampa, Lebeaus experience as a DB and as the DC of so many good defenses, plus Carnell, we should have no problem finding a few diamond in the rough safeties in the mid to late rounds yet we haven't been able to do it.

    Also, I agree with whoever said it above...why let Keenan Lewis a young CB leave for a relatively cheap contract for a starting CB, and keep Ike who has maybe 2 seasons left. The cost of Ikes contract by keeping him would be relatively equal to Lewis plus Ikes dead money if Ike were cut, and that would only be for a season or two then there would be no dead money...at which point you would have Lewis and Allen starting at CB for years....but now you have Allen and Ike and will be needing to draft and groom a CB very soon.
    @_Hellgrammite

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •