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Thread: Colbert

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    How many draft picks do we average a year? 7? 8? Since 2007, how many quality players have they drafted? (And don't give me this crap about being a play off each year makes finding good players impossible because we draft lower. Maybe you could apply that to how great the first round pick is, but you have 7 picks X 5, 35 picks.) Out of those 35 picks, how many quality players did they find? Hey, certainly not expecting for them to have found 35 good players, but how about more than 6? Should they have not found at least 15 pretty good players in that span? We will now be having to face reality after so many bad draft classes. It is pathetic.
    So what is a reasonable definition of "quality" or "pretty good" player? A player that is a starter for a playoff caliber team? A player that regularly performs up to expectations relative to draft position? Is a fifth through seventh round pick that makes the roster quality? What if he actually starts and plays well -- does that earn extra credit?

    And what about players that were otherwise playing well but who were stricken with injuries? Is that reasonably something you can pin on the GM?

    And what about players who contributed while here but took advantage of free agency to leave? The GM can't force a player to accept a contract, right?

    And do we give credit for finding quality undrafted free agents?

    2007 --- Lawrence Timmons, Lamar Woodley, Daniel Sepulveda
    2008 --- the entire draft now looks like it was a disaster, I will give you this one. But the team did get three solid seasons from Mendenhall. And Mundy lasted a lot longer than most teams 7th round picks. Most people were when Sweed dropped to us in Rd 2. Who could have predicted his problems would be mental rather than injury related.
    2009 --- Ziggy Hood, Kraig Urbik, Mike Wallace, Keenan Lewis; everyone from the 5th round on was a bust
    2010 --- Maurkice Pouncey, Manny Sanders, Jonathan Dwyer, Antonio Brown, possibly Worilds
    2011 --- Cam Heyward, Marcus Gilbert, Cortez Allen, possibly Curtis Brown, possibly Chris Carter

    From 2007 - 2011, I'm seeing 18 names on that list. You can argue that some of those guys aren't what you consider quality, but most of the ones I've listed are either starting material or have been playing behind an entrenched starter and not given much opportunity so we don't really know yet what they can do if given an opportunity as a 10-12 game starter. You toss out the ones that have left --- Mendenhall, Wallace, Lewis, Sepulveda, Mundy --- that's still 13. Add in Isaac Redman and Ramon Foster, punter Drew Butler, Steve McClendon, Robert Golden --- they have done a decent job stocking this roster with players considering that (1) they have regularly been hamstrung with a tight cap because they somehow managed to keep the bulk of the SuperBowl XL defense --- and Roethlisberger --- together with expensive long term deals that kept them in contention long enough to win one more SB and make it to another (look at what happened to Baltimore's roster this offseason after ONE SuperBowl) and (2) due to that success, they are frequently picking at the bottom of the round in each draft.

  2. #12
    Pro Bowler supersteeler's Avatar
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    Can someone tell me who has a perfect draft class every year?
    There are hits and misses with any draft, they are prospects who have to step up to the pro-level some do and some faulter.

    We have a young O-line with promise, so did we draft bad on the line too? Pouncey is an all pro center, Adams and DeCastro will be starters in 2013 as well as Gilbert. We landed Beachum in the later rounds last season and he looks to be a quality backup.

    How about Cortez Allen who will start this coming season, Keenan who signed with the Saints, are they bad picks?

    Do we have our share of misses? Sure just like every team does. Injuries played more of a role in last seasons fall than anything.
    Now don't get me wrong Colbert and Company had their misses,but its not like they missed in all these drafts.
    The two misses that stand out for me up to this point are Hood & Heyward, they were #1 picks who haven't lived up to that ranking, maybe both will this coming season but we haven't seen it yet.

    Wallace,Brown, and Sanders were all good picks, but when your 8-8 you only remember the bad ones and forget the others who make contributions to the teams success.

    The real problem here is.......$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. If we wern't so capped strapped we could of had Butler signed yesterday a good promising OLB. Colbert is only doing the best he can with what he has to work with, anyone who think they have the answers should apply for the position he holds

  3. #13
    Hall of Famer Iron Shiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelerkeylargo View Post
    You guys are a bunch of sheep. If the drafting is so "terrible" why are you so upset that they are all getting signed away by other teams?
    I think many people complaining on this board do not understand this. Everyone has it backwards. Our players are wanted by other teams (whether its financially fueled or not), that only lends more credibility that the front office and implies they are not asleep at the wheel. I'll continue to believe we are improving only until I see results that say otherwise. And don't give me any 8-8 horsecrap, I think with all the backups playing last year, that is a tremendous feat. As another poster said, if any of you were running the team I'm sure every backup would be all-pro.
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  4. #14
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    So what is a reasonable definition of "quality" or "pretty good" player? A player that is a starter for a playoff caliber team? A player that regularly performs up to expectations relative to draft position? Is a fifth through seventh round pick that makes the roster quality? What if he actually starts and plays well -- does that earn extra credit?
    It depends where they were drafted. If a 7th rounder doesn't end up being a pro bowler, that doesn't mean it's a bad pick; but if a 1st rounder isn't at or close to a pro bowl player, then it could be a FAIL pick. You would expect Hood and Heyward to be very good players, at least, at this point; I have not heard anyone agree that they are good players. Most say they get pushed around and make no real difference in games. That is not what I'd expect from first round DE picks. If they were nothing more than ham and eggers for this D, so be it. But you shouldn't need to use first round draft picks for pluggers.

    And what about players that were otherwise playing well but who were stricken with injuries? Is that reasonably something you can pin on the GM?
    If there were signs that the player had injury histories you could.
    And what about players who contributed while here but took advantage of free agency to leave? The GM can't force a player to accept a contract, right?
    OK, so show me all the players drafted in this era who left to star on another team. I will wait for you to get back to me on that one.


    And do we give credit for finding quality undrafted free agents?
    Sure, go ahead and list those for me as well.
    2007 --- Lawrence Timmons, Lamar Woodley, Daniel Sepulveda
    You are listing a punter taken in the 4th round, who never was that good, as a good draft pick? If you are going to take a punter that high, he better be a pro bowler. Most punters (even some of the best) go undrafted. If you are going to take one with a 4th round pick, he better be awesome for 12 years.
    2008 --- the entire draft now looks like it was a disaster, I will give you this one. But the team did get three solid seasons from Mendenhall. And Mundy lasted a lot longer than most teams 7th round picks. Most people were when Sweed dropped to us in Rd 2. Who could have predicted his problems would be mental rather than injury related.
    Well, at least you are being reasonable. And although Mundy "lasted" I can't allow myself to point to him as a good pick, because when he finally did make the field, he was just terrible. And with Mendenhall, he a middle, first round pick. I would honestly say a back taken that high should be better than what we got. The only reason he lasted as our starter for as long as he did was because the team was slow to admit he was a bust. Had he been a middle round draft pick, he would have lost his starting job. Chris Johnson, Ray Rice and Matt Forte were taken after him, and I would much prefer we drafted one of those guys.

    2009 --- Ziggy Hood, Kraig Urbik, Mike Wallace, Keenan Lewis; everyone from the 5th round on was a bust
    Are you really going to tell me you think Hood ended up being worthy of his spot? Urbik was cut the very next season; that is not a successful 2nd round pick. I will give you Wallace and Lewis, although they took too damn long to get him productive on the field, per usual, with Tricky Dick's brain surgery schemes.

    2010 --- Maurkice Pouncey, Manny Sanders, Jonathan Dwyer, Antonio Brown, possibly Worilds
    2011 --- Cam Heyward, Marcus Gilbert, Cortez Allen, possibly Curtis Brown, possibly Chris Carter
    I will give you Pouncy, Sanders, Brown. Dwyer not too bad for how late he was taken. Heyward? No way can he be considered a solid pick at this point, nor can Gilbert and definitely not Brown or Carter. Brown is horrible - he can be burned deep all day long. Carter offers nothing.
    From 2007 - 2011, I'm seeing 18 names on that list. You can argue that some of those guys aren't what you consider quality, but most of the ones I've listed are either starting material or have been playing behind an entrenched starter and not given much opportunity so we don't really know yet what they can do if given an opportunity as a 10-12 game starter. You toss out the ones that have left --- Mendenhall, Wallace, Lewis, Sepulveda, Mundy --- that's still 13. Add in Isaac Redman and Ramon Foster, punter Drew Butler, Steve McClendon, Robert Golden --- they have done a decent job stocking this roster with players considering that (1) they have regularly been hamstrung with a tight cap because they somehow managed to keep the bulk of the SuperBowl XL defense --- and Roethlisberger --- together with expensive long term deals that kept them in contention long enough to win one more SB and make it to another (look at what happened to Baltimore's roster this offseason after ONE SuperBowl) and (2) due to that success, they are frequently picking at the bottom of the round in each draft.
    Let's just agree to disagree. I no way consider many of the picks you posted as solid players. If Curtis Brown and Chris Carter are good picks, then I am also an NFL caliber player. If our draft classes were as decent as you seem to think, I wonder why we are now staring into the abyss, as far as how untalented this team is becoming. And as I already said, the excuse of picking near the end of the draft is not a iron clad argument. It DOES impact a draft quality some, but with 7 picks, there can be no excuse as to most of a draft class offering any good talent, as the 2008 draft provided. If having higher draft picks was guaranteed success in drafting, the Browns wouldn't have endless horrid drafts as they pick in the top 1-5 virtually every year since 1999. Pgh should have got more decent players since Tomlin era than they have. And it is becoming increasingly obvious that they have been drafting poorly for 5 years at least.

  5. #15
    Hall of Famer Mister Pittsburgh's Avatar
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    It is a combination of poor drafting AND roster management! Not one or the other. People can go through and cherry pick examples to defend their position of we are a good drafting or bad drafting team. However when an 8-8 team with poor depth at multiple positions is bringing back players they let walk year after year because they have no depth groomed and are so screwed against the cap that they push even more money into the future just so they can free up enough money to sign average to below average players, then something is not right.

    It's also a matter of poor priorities in the draft. I have mentioned it here quite a few times but it is horrible decision making to spend a first round pick on a 3-4 DE, and we have done it twice in three years! Thats like spending big bucks on a stereo and rims for your car but the motor and transmission (LB's & S's) are on their last legs. A punter in the 3rd round when there are plenty out there?
    Last edited by Mister Pittsburgh; 03-16-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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  6. #16
    Pro Bowler calmkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    No, that's not it. What you would prefer, with SOME of your back ups is to have some players with HOPE of an upside. They have added/signed ONLY players who have no upside to develop into quality starters. And this is an 8-8 team, meaning, there is plenty of room for upgrades; it's not as if all our starters are pro bowl players, so the back ups should have a CHANCE at developing into starters, like, say, a young James Harrison.

    So, who have they added/signed with potential upside? Foote? No. Gay? No. Johnson? No. Speath? Hellz to the no. They are adding older dudes who we KNOW will never be very good. Brilliant work, guys. Way to reduce this team to the Browns.

    I was worried about your posts until I realized who was posting it. Once I realized who was posting I put zero weight in it. Side note is there an ignore poster option on this board?
    LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
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    Draft 1.0

    1. Sammy Watkins, WR, Clemson
    2. Jason Verrett, CB, TCU
    3comp. Charles Sims, RB, WVU
    4. Dion Bailey, FS, USC
    5a. Will Clarke, DE, WVU
    5b. Walt Aikens, CB, Liberty
    6. Jeff Janis, WR, Saginaw Valley
    7a. Devon Keynard, OLB, USC
    7b. Eathyn Manumaleuna, DT, BYU

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersteeler View Post
    Can someone tell me who has a perfect draft class every year?
    There are hits and misses with any draft, they are prospects who have to step up to the pro-level some do and some faulter.

    We have a young O-line with promise, so did we draft bad on the line too? Pouncey is an all pro center, Adams and DeCastro will be starters in 2013 as well as Gilbert. We landed Beachum in the later rounds last season and he looks to be a quality backup.

    How about Cortez Allen who will start this coming season, Keenan who signed with the Saints, are they bad picks?

    Do we have our share of misses? Sure just like every team does. Injuries played more of a role in last seasons fall than anything.
    Now don't get me wrong Colbert and Company had their misses,but its not like they missed in all these drafts.
    The two misses that stand out for me up to this point are Hood & Heyward, they were #1 picks who haven't lived up to that ranking, maybe both will this coming season but we haven't seen it yet.

    Wallace,Brown, and Sanders were all good picks, but when your 8-8 you only remember the bad ones and forget the others who make contributions to the teams success.

    The real problem here is.......$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. If we wern't so capped strapped we could of had Butler signed yesterday a good promising OLB. Colbert is only doing the best he can with what he has to work with, anyone who think they have the answers should apply for the position he holds
    I don't think real problem is $$$$$...If they wanted they could have easily resigned K-Lew but they did not even gave him an offer...They are wasting $$$$ on signing some scrubs like DJ, Spaeth and Willie Gay...

    Now i agree there can't be hits in the draft all the time but when a team depends on draft and spends money only on their own FA well then have to do a better job...Now draft is a lottery but you better hit it frequently if draft is your only source of good players....

    I don't remember any game changer Steelers have drafted since 2007....
    Steelers Draft
    Rd 1: Mike Evans - WR
    Rd 2: Kyle Van Noy - ILB/OLB
    Rd 3c: Philip Gaines - CB
    Rd 4: Taylor Hart - DE
    Rd 5: Justin Ellis - DT
    Rd 5c:Xavier Grimble -TE

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by calmkiller View Post
    I was worried about your posts until I realized who was posting it. Once I realized who was posting I put zero weight in it. Side note is there an ignore poster option on this board?
    I see: You couldn't refute my assertions so now you are going to run away. How noble. The world needs jelly fish too.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by grotonsteel View Post
    I don't think real problem is $$$$$...If they wanted they could have easily resigned K-Lew but they did not even gave him an offer...They are wasting $$$$ on signing some scrubs like DJ, Spaeth and Willie Gay...

    Now i agree there can't be hits in the draft all the time but when a team depends on draft and spends money only on their own FA well then have to do a better job...Now draft is a lottery but you better hit it frequently if draft is your only source of good players....

    I don't remember any game changer Steelers have drafted since 2007.
    ...
    Ding, ding, ding. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Pittsburgh View Post
    It is a combination of poor drafting AND roster management! Not one or the other. People can go through and cherry pick examples to defend their position of we are a good drafting or bad drafting team. However when an 8-8 team with poor depth at multiple positions is bringing back players they let walk year after year because they have no depth groomed and are so screwed against the cap that they push even more money into the future just so they can free up enough money to sign average to below average players, then something is not right.

    It's also a matter of poor priorities in the draft. I have mentioned it here quite a few times but it is horrible decision making to spend a first round pick on a 3-4 DE, and we have done it twice in three years! Thats like spending big bucks on a stereo and rims for your car but the motor and transmission (LB's & S's) are on their last legs. A punter in the 3rd round when there are plenty out there?

    If you miss entire draft its going to put a team back for 2-3 years...Steelers FO just lost their mojo....

    2008 is a miss...2009 was a great draft but they just let those young talented players go..2009 is laso now almost miss...MW wanted more money hence was let go but what about cutting Ubrik and not re-signing K-Lew??? Who are making these stupid desicions???How can FO think Willie Gay is better than K-Lew???

    After poor drafting Steelers not only have poor depth but they don't have a starter at WR and RB position.
    Steelers Draft
    Rd 1: Mike Evans - WR
    Rd 2: Kyle Van Noy - ILB/OLB
    Rd 3c: Philip Gaines - CB
    Rd 4: Taylor Hart - DE
    Rd 5: Justin Ellis - DT
    Rd 5c:Xavier Grimble -TE

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