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Thread: The case FOR Harrison

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY View Post
    I'm one & I will take this head on.

    I do watch the games. At least twice. Once as a fan like everyone else and then other times to evaluate. I will tell you this, after the season ended I went back and watched every game from Blatimore 2 to the end. All intensions were to look at our front seven because 4 of them are coming to the end.

    Harrison just got stiff. His body doesn't have the ability to flex to be an edge rusher. Back & knee injuries combined with a stout maxed out frame at 35 has caught up to him. Your body has to be able to get into a proper angle to use your leverage to gain the upfield shoulder of the LT and rip. If you lose your ankle deflection, strength in knees to power through force at an angle, and the back strength to maintain leverage when engaged...It goes downhill fast. Harrison is a blunt downhill pass rusher right now. If a LT gets his punch in on Harrison's shoulders and moves his feet upfield, Harrison folds and is re-routed. He loses the leverage battle before he could rip under. He has become more of a motor rush and hoping he can out quick the LT by showing him enough inside counters & bull rushes. I luv Harrison and what he did for the Steelers. The arrow is pointing in the wrong direction on him.

    I keep hearing the "He had a sack in 5 of the last seven games, with two strip fumbles created." "Defense terrible in the begining and better when he came back." Harrison was coming on at the end of the season.' "Best OLB the Steelers have." Steelers defense always comes on stronger as the year goes on. Troy came back for the last 5 games...Maybe it was him. (That was sarcastic.) We will stay with that theory. That theory is what shows the truth. Woodley had a horrible year. He will have to rebound. So Harrison was better than Woodley..I agree. That's it and is that really an accomplishment given the way Woodley played? Is there anyone else you could truley say he was better than when the next OLB started 3 games and got 27 TT & 5 sacks with 30% of his snaps compared to 13 games started 70 TT & 6 sacks? No...You can't.

    So to stay with the coming on strong at the end of the year and a sack in 5 of his last 7 games theory. In week 13, end of season where Harrison is Coming on, the Steelers pull out a win over the Ravens without BB to get themselves into position to make a run. Harrison has a good game pitching in 7 tackles, 1 sack with a FF on the sack. The Steelers sit 7-5 and still alive. They put themselves in must-win-control-your-own-destiny-playoff-mode. So over the next 3 games, 2 home & 1 on the road against SD, DAL, & CIN....Harrison goes 10 TT 1 Sack 1 FF in 3 straight losses. Anyone else hear crickets? He has a sack but if I am correct he got credit for 1 sack for 0 yards in the Bengals game. I believe it was on the FG miss drive at the end of the game where Troy blitzed fee and Dalton ran out of shotgun and got tackled at the LOS to stay in FG range. Regardless...10-1-1 in three must win games. Is that "a beast" or coming on strong? You witnessed a break down of a soon to be 35 year old LB. It is a young mans game. If you don't agree with that...The other option would be lack of effort. It's James Harrison, I don't think that was the case.

    7-8 as a result going into a meaningless game against a non playoff team who is 5-11. You can't use Harrison's stats in this game as any indication of where Harrison is at in his career. Where was he the last three games when the games counted? The body just wouldn't go. Harrison was in career survival mode against a team who has been the epidemy of underachievers. Everyone on that field was going to their complexes the next day and getting ready for the exit meetings & the offseason. 5 sacks in his last 7 games doesn't sound so good anymore.

    This Harrison issue is about production, age, cap hit, and what the risk is on losing young players. It isn't about how much we luv the guy or what he did for the Steelers. Harrison isn't going to get this team to the SB. The ceiling for 2013 is in the hands of the coaches, BB, the young guys next in line, and the draft class. Moving on from some of the older vets may be the difference of 2-3 games on the bad side but it very well could be an parallel or upgrade...We don't know. I think more importantly is we do something that has to be done anyway in the near future if it allows the Steelers to hold on to players that will be a big part of the future.

    One of the best write ups in a very long time. I totally agree, the arrow is pointing the worng direction and hoping to cattch lightening in the bottle "just one more season" is what got the team into the mess we are in. That's exactly what we tried to do with Aaron Smith (about three times), Casey Hampton, etc. It is time to move on and complete the generational change we started last season.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    You watch the games right? Twice? You do better than I do, much respect.

    How in the heck is he "washed up" when NO 3/4 OLBer IN THE LEAGUE gets to the ball more than he does?

    Sacks are ONE FACET, one where he did come on late.

    There is ONE ROLE that all defensive players have in common. End the offensive play.
    No Olber is more productive at that then Harrison PERIOD.
    Not just two years ago, not back when he was DMVP, he ends the play more than all his peers TODAY.

    Did Greg Llloyd put up HUGE sack numbers? No! Was Jason Gildon better than Lloyd? If you go by sacks alone Gildon is an alltime great.

    Llloyd made stops, just like Harrison continues to do.

    We get the return of the most productive tackler IN THE LEAGUE at his position and our defense improves by leaps and bounds. Just a coincidence? I dont think so.
    Remember when people screams at how teams were running AT Ziggy with success? Ziggy is on the other side with Woodley. Smart teams dont run at Harrison, yet he STILL makes plays.

    You said Woodley had a down year. Harrison had more tackles than Woodley has EVER HAD, at his finest. Harrison did that with no September.
    Beloved Joey Porter bested 70 tt ONCE in his storied career.

    Every tackle is a play on the ball. Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period.

    So many players are "all sack no substance". Keep him off your QB and his game is worthless.

    Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks.
    Not mentioned in this discussion was that Harrison looked terrible in pass coverage when he came back. Lots of chasing the guy who eventually caught the ball.

    Its time we move on just like we did from Joey Porter to James Harrison.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by BigRob View Post
    Did you see the part where I said he was still good in the run game? You don't pay 3-4 OLB'ers that much money to play well in the run game.
    GLloyd or Gildon? Who had more sacks but who got paid?
    Look at Porters typical sack numbers as a Steeler.
    Aint much different than Harrisons last year given a full season.

    BTW, the DL looking sack specialist (Greene, Gildon, Woodley) tends to play on Woodleys side. The better run stopper plays Harrisons role.
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 02-15-2013 at 03:13 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    You watch the games right? Twice? You do better than I do, much respect.

    How in the heck is he "washed up" when NO 3/4 OLBer IN THE LEAGUE gets to the ball more than he does?

    Sacks are ONE FACET, one where he did come on late.

    There is ONE ROLE that all defensive players have in common. End the offensive play.
    No Olber is more productive at that then Harrison PERIOD.
    Not just two years ago, not back when he was DMVP, he ends the play more than all his peers TODAY.

    Did Greg Llloyd put up HUGE sack numbers? No! Was Jason Gildon better than Lloyd? If you go by sacks alone Gildon is an alltime great.

    Llloyd made stops, just like Harrison continues to do.

    We get the return of the most productive tackler IN THE LEAGUE at his position and our defense improves by leaps and bounds. Just a coincidence? I dont think so.
    Remember when people screams at how teams were running AT Ziggy with success? Ziggy is on the other side with Woodley. Smart teams dont run at Harrison, yet he STILL makes plays.

    You said Woodley had a down year. Harrison had more tackles than Woodley has EVER HAD, at his finest. Harrison did that with no September.
    Beloved Joey Porter bested 70 tt ONCE in his storied career.

    Every tackle is a play on the ball. Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period.

    So many players are "all sack no substance". Keep him off your QB and his game is worthless.

    Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks.
    You are just hung up on those tackle stats. I commend him on his tackle stats...But he isn't a force because of that. 3-4 OLB...Get to the QB. Can't do it as well as he should. That is where he should excel first at his position. He is playing like a SAM backer..Not a 3-4 OLB.

    Down the stretch Harrison was getting tuned out of the holes & hooked by TEs in the run game. He was getting stoned in the hole by OL too much for my liking. Harrison makes many tackles off his backside discipline because teams run strong side. No reason to believe Harrison is a dominant OLB in a 3-4 because he got 70 tackles & 6 sacks.

    Your tackle stat luv has holes. Clark had over 100 tackles again...Is that a good thing? Larry Foote had 113 - 4 sacks - 2 FF....$hit he must be better than Harrison right? Believe your eyes...Not the stats. My eyes showed my a player in rapid decline. Unable to make those splash plays that you expect from the engine of a 3-4...The OLBs. Splash plays are sacks, FF, and INTs....Not tackles. I agree about one thing. "Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks." Correct....At one time it did. That is why he WAS so special.

    "Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period." These guys all want to talk to you...Aldon Smith, Von Miller, Clay Mathews, Demarcus Ware

    You know what my eyes see that tell me the end has come....Teams DON'T gameplan for Harrison anymore. If you didn't see that watching the games....Your TV was off.
    Last edited by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY; 02-15-2013 at 03:41 PM.



  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    GLloyd or Gildon? Who had more sacks but who got paid?
    Look at Porters typical sack numbers as a Steeler.
    Aint much different than Harrisons last year given a full season.

    BTW, the DL looking sack specialist (Greene, Gildon, Woodley) tends to play on Woodleys side. The better run stopper plays Harrisons role.
    Different time and a different game. Applying pressure and sacks are more important than stopping the run in the new NFL.

    If Harrison can't cover and can't rush the passer with the same efficiency. He isn't worth the money and he won't take a pay cut. Too much pride in the man. Don't really blame him. He's a scrapper.
    Here comes the BOOM!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Lemming View Post
    GLloyd or Gildon? Who had more sacks but who got paid?
    Look at Porters typical sack numbers as a Steeler.
    Aint much different than Harrisons last year given a full season.

    BTW, the DL looking sack specialist (Greene, Gildon, Woodley) tends to play on Woodleys side. The better run stopper plays Harrisons role.
    That is a very good comparison with Porter Cap. Porter put up 55 TT 7 Sacks & 2 INT...Then they cut him at 30.

    The better run stoppers play strongside or LOLB. The OLB who has more range play ROLB. Because of a LOLB discipline against the run, they tend to get LESS tackles. His job is to take everything on with his right shoulder and protect the edge while squeezing the hole down. If it bounces...String it to the sideline if you can't force it back inside. The ROLB is to come down the LOS and often is unblocked. Protect the backside cutback and make the tackle if he crosses your face. Early on in his career (which made him special) You had to put a hat on Harrison because he came down hard and made the tackle from the backside. Even when blocked, he could beat the TE or LT and still make a play away.
    Last edited by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY; 02-15-2013 at 04:03 PM.



  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY View Post
    You are just hung up on those tackle stats. I commend him on his tackle stats...But he isn't a force because of that. 3-4 OLB...Get to the QB. Can't do it as well as he should. That is where he should excel first at his position. He is playing like a SAM backer..Not a 3-4 OLB.

    Down the stretch Harrison was getting tuned out of the holes & hooked by TEs in the run game. He was getting stoned in the hole by OL too much for my liking. Harrison makes many tackles off his backside discipline because teams run strong side. No reason to believe Harrison is a dominant OLB in a 3-4 because he got 70 tackles & 6 sacks.

    Your tackle stat luv has holes. Clark had over 100 tackles again...Is that a good thing? Larry Foote had 113 - 4 sacks - 2 FF....$hit he must be better than Harrison right? Believe your eyes...Not the stats. My eyes showed my a player in rapid decline. Unable to make those splash plays that you expect from the engine of a 3-4...The OLBs. Splash plays are sacks, FF, and INTs....Not tackles. I agree about one thing. "Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks." Correct....At one time it did. That is why he WAS so special.

    "Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period." These guys all want to talk to you...Aldon Smith, Von Miller, Clay Mathews, Demarcus Ware

    You know what my eyes see that tell me the end has come....Teams DON'T gameplan for Harrison anymore. If you didn't see that watching the games....Your TV was off.

    Yes. Job #1 for a 3-4 OLB is to sack the QB. Every other stat is meaningless. The defense is designed for those OLBs to pressure the QB and if they can't it starts to unravel as we have seen against good teams the past few years.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY View Post
    You are just hung up on those tackle stats. I commend him on his tackle stats...But he isn't a force because of that. 3-4 OLB...Get to the QB. Can't do it as well as he should. That is where he should excel first at his position. He is playing like a SAM backer..Not a 3-4 OLB.

    Down the stretch Harrison was getting tuned out of the holes & hooked by TEs in the run game. He was getting stoned in the hole by OL too much for my liking. Harrison makes many tackles off his backside discipline because teams run strong side. No reason to believe Harrison is a dominant OLB in a 3-4 because he got 70 tackles & 6 sacks.

    Your tackle stat luv has holes. Clark had over 100 tackles again...Is that a good thing? Larry Foote had 113 - 4 sacks - 2 FF....$hit he must be better than Harrison right? Believe your eyes...Not the stats. My eyes showed my a player in rapid decline. Unable to make those splash plays that you expect from the engine of a 3-4...The OLBs. Splash plays are sacks, FF, and INTs....Not tackles. I agree about one thing. "Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks." Correct....At one time it did. That is why he WAS so special.

    "Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period." These guys all want to talk to you...Aldon Smith, Von Miller, Clay Mathews, Demarcus Ware

    You know what my eyes see that tell me the end has come....Teams DON'T gameplan for Harrison anymore. If you didn't see that watching the games....Your TV was off.
    Harrison mostly got handled by the LT. Unlike in the past the LT rarely needed help. That is how we know Harrison is done.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slapstick View Post
    Who? Which players?
    Panthers...Jon Beason's cap hit is 9.5 mill next year.

    When I said "these teams" I meant bad teams who are notorious for overpaying players. Plenty of teams have LB's making 5 to 6 mill who aren't of JH's caliber present day.

    Woodley is #2 with a cap hit of 10.25 mill.... that guy is stealing.

    http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/...ge/linebacker/

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz View Post
    Panthers...Jon Beason's cap hit is 9.5 mill next year.

    When I said "these teams" I meant bad teams who are notorious for overpaying players. Plenty of teams have LB's making 5 to 6 mill who aren't of JH's caliber present day.

    Woodley is #2 with a cap hit of 10.25 mill.... that guy is stealing.

    http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/...ge/linebacker/
    He was this year...That is for sure. Woodleys 2013 cap hit is 13.2 which may get restructured. He better get an 11+ sack year and maybe I will forgive him.



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