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Thread: Harrison Says He Won't Take a Paycut--Bye James!

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY View Post
    There are alot of maybes Pap. Most from limited playing time. If we knew the answers to the maybes we could all sleep better. The only ones who have a better idea if the Steelers. We can only guess. My guess based upon their actions?

    Worilds - I believe the Steelers feel he is next in line.
    Carter - Still a work in progress. Depth until he shows more.
    Robinson - They liked something to protect him on the 53.
    Woodley - Still the man after a down year. Nothing to worry about.
    Sylvester - May be just depth and a role player on ST. We will find out about inside this year.
    Hood/Heyward - No reason to think they aren't the future.
    McClendon - You won't see Casey back because of him. Casey was making 4.9 mil last year on a guranteed contract. Do you think a healthy Hampton would have been benched?
    T'amu - Bent over backwards to keep him even after his problems. That tells you something.
    Golden - I took Allen off. He shouldn't be here on this list. Again, thought enough of Golden to keep him on 53. He may have a shot at the future FS.
    Lewis/Cortez Allen - Love the CB depth. Lewis should be the #1 priority.

    The Steelers were 3rd in the divsion with this roster. What makes anyone think keeping these declining over paid underachieving 30+ year olds will drink from the fountain of youth and give us one for the Chief and all can ride off into the sunset and retire Steelers after they win the SB in 2013 has me puzzled. I know KC can figure it out.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The veterans that everyone wants to release, cut or dump in some fashion are by far the best option this team has to be a winner and contender next year and, IMO, it isn't even close. You've got the glass half full and I believe that the glass is near empty with the young guys. Many were kept on the 53 simply because you have to fill the roster in my estimation, Golden, Sylvester, Robinson, Carter, et al. I hope I am so wrong that you can drudge up this thread 9 months from now and tell me, "see I told you so Pap", I just don't see it happening.

    If the Steelers cut or release every veteran that has been proposed on this board they will be fortunate to win 6 games and that will be because Ben is worth about 4-5 games a year, with an average quarterback and the young defense for which everyone is clamoring they would win about 2 games. None of these younger players were even pushing a veteran for playing time, Hood and Heyward were handed playing time because Smitty retired otherwise, they'd probably still be waiting for Smitty to retire. Hell, Keisel was the best defensive lineman the Steelers had and he's 34 and has been a good player, but no one is mistaking him for the Hall of Fame.

    No one could dislodge Harrison at 85% in his own words he was playing and rehabbing. Damn, how do you not push Harrison out of a job if he isn't 100%? Because, he's still the best OLB they have, thankfully, Timmons is playing very well or Harrison would be the best LB on the team at 34.

    Hampton in all reality shouldn't have seen any snaps unless an injury occurred and, yet, he was a two down NT this past season with relief from McClendon on third down.

    Going younger just for the sake of going younger is a recipe in my mind for more than one or two down years. You hope they develop and if they don't you're drafting to replace a player that was drafted to replace a player and that's never a good thing.

    Like this year, the Steelers need an RB and a WR, they drafted Mendenhall and Wallace to be those guys, now they have to draft their replacements. I know the cap situation is burdensome and is the biggest reason for all of this, but the reality, IMO, is that if they clean house this year the Steelers will need the current young guys to become the players they were expected to be or hope they hit it big in the draft.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ra'Shede Hageman - DE
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    5.173) Terrance Mitchell - CB
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    7.207) Jay Bromley - DT
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    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  2. #42
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    That is fair Pap. You know I am not one of the "I told you so" guys. We have all been spot on and a "shade" off. lol

    Doesn't matter who is right or wrong here. If you are right, the Steelers failed miserably on draft choice and talent evaluating that will set the team back. We are talking about 2 first rounders and a second. You miss sometimes but the Steelers are good early. They players in waiting have been on the roster 3 or more years so that is alot of wasted time and resources if your theory is true. I don't believe that is the case but we will see. Players are not kept on the Steelesr roster simply as roster fillers. They have potential or can contribute.

    The arrow on this team is not going up because of any of the guys being thrown around as cuts. A year younger they showed an 8-8. The teams ceiling for 2013 is set by the guys behind the starters who will replace them or the draft class. That is the whole reason they are in the "cut" conversation if someone is behind them. They are older and the gap has closed. Their salary and the Steelers cap situation makes them a candidate. This team is sitting between 7-9 & 9-7 with and without the vets everyone wants to hold on to. The window is that close. To keep a "fan favorite" vet you lose a young talent. You are washing the talent for a year or two but hurting the teams future.

    I keep hearing from everyone about a young guy not being able to take a vets spot so that makes them garbage...Give up on him! I will start off by saying all of them signed their last contract with nobody in place behind them with certainty. That is a huge part of my evalution process on what is going to transpire. The Steelers had the "luxury" over the last several drafts to take the BPA because they didn't have many holes on their roster and were competing. The drafted guys at positions to learn behind very productive vets. If it is close, the vets are going to start. It would take ALOT to unseat a vet at the beginning or middle of a contract. The business side of the game will tell you when it is time. Until that time, you are building a talented deep roster that contends almost every year. BUT....At some point the scale tilts...And the change has to be made to transition & stay competive. That time comes at the end of the contract and when the player is in decline.

    I mentioned in another post about the starters in place each year after Cowher's last year. Stability & low turnover has been the key to their success. 11-2012, 16-2011, 16-2010, 18-2009, 19-2008, & 20-2007. That was the core run. 50% of the starters were still in place last year from Cowher. That can't last forever. People are taking to heart the name on the back of the jersey. It isn't about that. We will all luv and respect them if they move on. It is about what is best for the organization now & the future. You never sacrifice the future for NOW to be a successful organization. You always have to consider the future for the now. We have seen what happens if you don't. You create "Gaps" of production that goes years & years. The Steelers have always lived by that philosophy. When the time comes and that decision that we all hate has to be made....They make it on the future. We didn't think there was a chance they would let Woodson, Lake, Faneca, LLoyd, or Thigpen leave via FA. We sure the hell didn't think the Steelers would cut our heroes like Kirkland, Porter, Farrior, or Ward. The Steelers are right in the middle of it again...Over their heads. They don't have the ability to hold on to all their young talent.... But they will scramble to try.

    I don't think this is a case of going younger just to go younger. I think in most cases it is a matter of going younger because the gap has closed based on the vets decline and the salary cap issues makes it a must. Simply saying he is the "Best Option" would mean something if they all got the same paycheck. It is a business..No matter how you look at it. So "The Right Option" makes more sense. A 2013 35 year old Harrison couting 10 mil or a 25 year old Worilds counting $985,000 against the cap. The production gap has been narrowed significantly. Now add in the fact that keeping Harrison may cost you Lewis or other URFA and not give you a clear evaluation on Worilds for his next contract. So now you offer Worilds less than he thinks he is worth and goes elsewhere and flurishes. Or the more damaging thing, you offer Worilds too much based on what you think he could be (Because he doesn't have a full year starting) and it turns out to be a mistake. If I'm playing one game and need an OLB the "Best Option" is Harrison. If I'm trying to run an organization and I am faced with above... the "Right Option" would be Worilds.
    Last edited by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY; 02-14-2013 at 01:48 PM.
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  3. #43
    Hall of Famer fezziwig's Avatar
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    I'm not sure Cowher could have won another Super Bowl let alone made it to two Super Bowls like Tomlin. Cowhers days as a Steeler coach seemed to be running on fumes. He had his favorite players and I commend him for being in their corner but, I doubt we would have ever learned what a sensation James Harrison would be had Cowher remained on the team. I doubt we would have had the players that won our last Super Bowl, plugged in at the time as starters under Cowher.
    Obviously it's just my guess and maybe they were a franchise of destiny at that time with or without Bill.

    With Art II being more aggressive in my opinion to win Super Bowls and to see results quicker than Art Sr. and Dan Rooney, I think they will calculate for a new had coach a little faster the next time they see their team/teams not making the grade.

    The reason why I say this is, at the end of the 2003 season Art II was interviewed ( a quick in passing interview ) and asked what he thought about the season and the new season ahead of us/them for 2004. Art II quickly snapped back with, " I'm ready to win the Super Bowl " We should be winning Super Bowls " (Something to those words) He was ticked off and he didn't hold back with his emotions. I never gave him much thought on the like and dislike meter but after that, I like and respect Art II. When he fired Arians and I think it was on him,, when he fired Arians I knew this guy can see where the problems were at with our offense.

    It just so happened Cowher won a Super Bowl the following season in 2004.
    " We'll do the same thing we always do, we'll take every situation from week to week and do what we think is best for that week and evaluate it on that basis.. If cheating will give us the edge as it has always done then, we will continue to cheat. " Bill Belichick

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The veterans that everyone wants to release, cut or dump in some fashion are by far the best option this team has to be a winner and contender next year and, IMO, it isn't even close. You've got the glass half full and I believe that the glass is near empty with the young guys. Many were kept on the 53 simply because you have to fill the roster in my estimation, Golden, Sylvester, Robinson, Carter, et al. I hope I am so wrong that you can drudge up this thread 9 months from now and tell me, "see I told you so Pap", I just don't see it happening.

    If the Steelers cut or release every veteran that has been proposed on this board they will be fortunate to win 6 games and that will be because Ben is worth about 4-5 games a year, with an average quarterback and the young defense for which everyone is clamoring they would win about 2 games. None of these younger players were even pushing a veteran for playing time, Hood and Heyward were handed playing time because Smitty retired otherwise, they'd probably still be waiting for Smitty to retire. Hell, Keisel was the best defensive lineman the Steelers had and he's 34 and has been a good player, but no one is mistaking him for the Hall of Fame.

    No one could dislodge Harrison at 85% in his own words he was playing and rehabbing. Damn, how do you not push Harrison out of a job if he isn't 100%? Because, he's still the best OLB they have, thankfully, Timmons is playing very well or Harrison would be the best LB on the team at 34.

    Hampton in all reality shouldn't have seen any snaps unless an injury occurred and, yet, he was a two down NT this past season with relief from McClendon on third down.

    Going younger just for the sake of going younger is a recipe in my mind for more than one or two down years. You hope they develop and if they don't you're drafting to replace a player that was drafted to replace a player and that's never a good thing.

    Like this year, the Steelers need an RB and a WR, they drafted Mendenhall and Wallace to be those guys, now they have to draft their replacements. I know the cap situation is burdensome and is the biggest reason for all of this, but the reality, IMO, is that if they clean house this year the Steelers will need the current young guys to become the players they were expected to be or hope they hit it big in the draft.

    Pappy
    Very well said.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    Going younger just for the sake of going younger is a recipe in my mind for more than one or two down years. You hope they develop and if they don't you're drafting to replace a player that was drafted to replace a player and that's never a good thing.
    If we cut Harrison, it won't be getting younger for the sake of getting younger. It will be 100% about the salary cap. With no cap, we'd keep guys like JH all the time until they're done because they are still productive when they're on the field and you don`t lose anything (but money) by keeping them. But if Worilds has to play 25% of the time anyway (JH has started 24/32 games over 2 seasons), is it worth saving Harrison's cap hit to keep a guy like Lewis? That's why the FO gets paid the big bucks.

  6. #46
    Hall of Famer fezziwig's Avatar
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    It might be a fluke that James Harrison has had his share of injuries these last two seasons. The Steelers gambled in my opinion on Aron Smith and to me it failed. They have also been rolling the dice with Colon and failed. If I was to feel we should get rid of James Harrison it is only due to being worried if he can make it through a season. As mentioned on the above post or two, I'd take a 85% James Harrison over anyone on our team.
    And you guys are right as rain, the old guys are still better than the young guys but at some point, you need to allow the youth their chance and learn if they can get the job done.

    I'd rather go 6-10 knowing we are trying to improve our team rather than going 8-8 or 10-6 with knowing that, we are skating on thin ice with guys that should retire or are no longer the long term future. My way of thinking is we may have found some young guys that have finally taken control of the team, their career and improved or we get higher draft picks and eventually we will be a power house again.

    Skirting each season as a 500 team plus or minus a game or two either way doesn't build a good team, it just keeps you at 500 for seasons to come.
    " We'll do the same thing we always do, we'll take every situation from week to week and do what we think is best for that week and evaluate it on that basis.. If cheating will give us the edge as it has always done then, we will continue to cheat. " Bill Belichick

  7. #47
    Legend papillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY View Post
    That is fair Pap. You know I am not one of the "I told you so" guys. We have all been spot on and a "shade" off. lol

    Doesn't matter who is right or wrong here. If you are right, the Steelers failed miserably on draft choice and talent evaluating that will set the team back. We are talking about 2 first rounders and a second. You miss sometimes but the Steelers are good early. They players in waiting have been on the roster 3 or more years so that is alot of wasted time and resources if your theory is true. I don't believe that is the case but we will see. Players are not kept on the Steelesr roster simply as roster fillers. They have potential or can contribute.

    The arrow on this team is not going up because of any of the guys being thrown around as cuts. A year younger they showed an 8-8. The teams ceiling for 2013 is set by the guys behind the starters who will replace them or the draft class. That is the whole reason they are in the "cut" conversation if someone is behind them. They are older and the gap has closed. Their salary and the Steelers cap situation makes them a candidate. This team is sitting between 7-9 & 9-7 with and without the vets everyone wants to hold on to. The window is that close. To keep a "fan favorite" vet you lose a young talent. You are washing the talent for a year or two but hurting the teams future.

    I keep hearing from everyone about a young guy not being able to take a vets spot so that makes them garbage...Give up on him! I will start off by saying all of them signed their last contract with nobody in place behind them with certainty. That is a huge part of my evalution process on what is going to transpire. The Steelers had the "luxury" over the last several drafts to take the BPA because they didn't have many holes on their roster and were competing. The drafted guys at positions to learn behind very productive vets. If it is close, the vets are going to start. It would take ALOT to unseat a vet at the beginning or middle of a contract. The business side of the game will tell you when it is time. Until that time, you are building a talented deep roster that contends almost every year. BUT....At some point the scale tilts...And the change has to be made to transition & stay competive. That time comes at the end of the contract and when the player is in decline.

    I mentioned in another post about the starters in place each year after Cowher's last year. Stability & low turnover has been the key to their success. 11-2012, 16-2011, 16-2010, 18-2009, 19-2008, & 20-2007. That was the core run. 50% of the starters were still in place last year from Cowher. That can't last forever. People are taking to heart the name on the back of the jersey. It isn't about that. We will all luv and respect them if they move on. It is about what is best for the organization now & the future. You never sacrifice the future for NOW to be a successful organization. You always have to consider the future for the now. We have seen what happens if you don't. You create "Gaps" of production that goes years & years. The Steelers have always lived by that philosophy. When the time comes and that decision that we all hate has to be made....They make it on the future. We didn't think there was a chance they would let Woodson, Lake, Faneca, LLoyd, or Thigpen leave via FA. We sure the hell didn't think the Steelers would cut our heroes like Kirkland, Porter, Farrior, or Ward. The Steelers are right in the middle of it again...Over their heads. They don't have the ability to hold on to all their young talent.... But they will scramble to try.

    I don't think this is a case of going younger just to go younger. I think in most cases it is a matter of going younger because the gap has closed based on the vets decline and the salary cap issues makes it a must. Simply saying he is the "Best Option" would mean something if they all got the same paycheck. It is a business..No matter how you look at it. So "The Right Option" makes more sense. A 2013 35 year old Harrison couting 10 mil or a 25 year old Worilds counting $985,000 against the cap. The production gap has been narrowed significantly. Now add in the fact that keeping Harrison may cost you Lewis or other URFA and not give you a clear evaluation on Worilds for his next contract. So now you offer Worilds less than he thinks he is worth and goes elsewhere and flurishes. Or the more damaging thing, you offer Worilds too much based on what you think he could be (Because he doesn't have a full year starting) and it turns out to be a mistake. If I'm playing one game and need an OLB the "Best Option" is Harrison. If I'm trying to run an organization and I am faced with above... the "Right Option" would be Worilds.
    JPN, I can't disagree with anything you say here. The business side of the game in this instance is causing the Steelers to probably make personnel decisions that they may not want to make this year when it comes to the veterans. I suffered through the 80s and the non competitiveness of the team after the HOFers retired or finally couldn't compete any longer. Unfortunately, while the majority of this crop of veterans aren't HOFers they are very good football players compared to those waiting to take over (IMO) and I fear the same. The only difference this time is that the Steelers do have a quarterback in place that is a proven winner.

    In the next 3 to 4 weeks the Steelers will have to reveal their hand to a degree. I believe they have to be under the cap limit on or near March 14th. We'll know a lot at that point about the team and the draft in all likelihood.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ra'Shede Hageman - DE
    2.47) Jason Verrett - CB
    3.97) CJ Fiedorowicz - TE
    4.114) Brandon Coleman - WR
    5.145) Lamin Barrow - ILB
    5.173) Terrance Mitchell - CB
    6.176)
    7.207) Jay Bromley - DT
    7.215)

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fezziwig View Post
    I'm not sure Cowher could have won another Super Bowl let alone made it to two Super Bowls like Tomlin. Cowhers days as a Steeler coach seemed to be running on fumes. He had his favorite players and I commend him for being in their corner but, I doubt we would have ever learned what a sensation James Harrison would be had Cowher remained on the team. I doubt we would have had the players that won our last Super Bowl, plugged in at the time as starters under Cowher.
    Obviously it's just my guess and maybe they were a franchise of destiny at that time with or without Bill.

    With Art II being more aggressive in my opinion to win Super Bowls and to see results quicker than Art Sr. and Dan Rooney, I think they will calculate for a new had coach a little faster the next time they see their team/teams not making the grade.

    The reason why I say this is, at the end of the 2003 season Art II was interviewed ( a quick in passing interview ) and asked what he thought about the season and the new season ahead of us/them for 2004. Art II quickly snapped back with, " I'm ready to win the Super Bowl " We should be winning Super Bowls " (Something to those words) He was ticked off and he didn't hold back with his emotions. I never gave him much thought on the like and dislike meter but after that, I like and respect Art II. When he fired Arians and I think it was on him,, when he fired Arians I knew this guy can see where the problems were at with our offense.

    It just so happened Cowher won a Super Bowl the following season in 2004.
    Just a minor correction: 15-1 in 2004 with Rookie Ben. Super Bowl in 2005. Retired after poor 8-8 showing in 2006, where Ben nearly died.
    Last edited by Eich; 02-14-2013 at 04:07 PM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    JPN, I can't disagree with anything you say here. The business side of the game in this instance is causing the Steelers to probably make personnel decisions that they may not want to make this year when it comes to the veterans. I suffered through the 80s and the non competitiveness of the team after the HOFers retired or finally couldn't compete any longer. Unfortunately, while the majority of this crop of veterans aren't HOFers they are very good football players compared to those waiting to take over (IMO) and I fear the same. The only difference this time is that the Steelers do have a quarterback in place that is a proven winner.

    In the next 3 to 4 weeks the Steelers will have to reveal their hand to a degree. I believe they have to be under the cap limit on or near March 14th. We'll know a lot at that point about the team and the draft in all likelihood.

    Pappy
    I'm not sure that we can write off the players who are waiting to step in. We don't know until they get a chance. People forget that in Porter's last year while Harrison got some spot playing time in 16 games he had "Zero" sacks and then in his first year as a starter he had 8.5. IMO Worilds is already further ahead in his development than Harrison was in the same situation. In spot playing time Worilds had 5 sacks in 2012. I think that everyone looks at 2008 and Harrison's 16 sacks and act like he's had that every year. He has had three consecutive years of 16, 10, and 10.5 sacks, but he has not hit double digits for two years now and has played a total of just 24 games in two years. Sorry, but that is player at the end of his career.
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  10. #50
    Hall of Famer fezziwig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eich View Post
    Just a minor correction: 15-1 in 2004 with Rookie Ben. Super Bowl in 2005. Retired after poor 8-8 showing in 2006, where Ben nearly died.

    Yep your correct and thanks. But the point is, Art II spoke his mind with being upset and the following year the Steelers defeated the Seahawks in the Super Bowl. I wish he would gripe more when asked. Might be good mojo
    " We'll do the same thing we always do, we'll take every situation from week to week and do what we think is best for that week and evaluate it on that basis.. If cheating will give us the edge as it has always done then, we will continue to cheat. " Bill Belichick

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