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Thread: Steelers LB James Harrison blames Jovan Belcher, not guns

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Slapstick View Post
    Not at all.

    I never said anything about Democrat or Republican, nor did I try to villify them.
    What were you implying when you said "I would prefer to peruse the study of a non-political entity"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Slapstick
    I prefer to counter with hard facts that can't be debated, as I did in my previous post regarding quantity of firearms per person in the US and the number of gun related homicides in the US when compared with other countries.
    Slap, you didn't counter the facts I presented about crime dropping in a town where gun ownership was mandated, and rising in a town where guns were banned. Nor did you bother to counter the facts presented in the Cato Institute Report, or Dr. Kleck's research. You simply chose to ignore them as inconsequential.

    Is there a high percentage of gun-related homicides in the US in comparison with other countries? Yes. But there is a high percentage of homicides WITHOUT GUNS in comparison with other countries. That tells me you can't just blame gun ownership.

    Murders by firearm in the US number less than 9000 per year...but Dr. Kleck's research found that some 2.5 million crimes are PREVENTED in this country every year because of firearms. In other words, for every murder due to a firearm in this country, more than 250 crimes are THWARTED due to a firearm. Those aren't the findings of a conservative with an agenda; those are the findings of Dr. Kleck, a liberal Democrat (see my earlier post). Even if he's off in his analysis, other studies would seem to indicate that for every crime committed with a firearm, at least 3 to 5 crimes are prevented by firearms. Even using the low figures from the Clinton Justice Department, firearms are used almost 50 times more often to save life than to take life. (* See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois; also Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," NIJ Research in Brief; available at http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt.)

    Now, here are some other facts for you to chew on (though I suspect you'll just dismiss them as well):

    --The NON-gun homicide rate for children in the U.S. is more than twice as high as in other Western countries. (* Kids and Guns, 2000, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention)

    --
    In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms. (* United Nations data) Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.

    --Over 80% of homicides against children age 13 and under are committed WITHOUT a gun. (* 1997, FBI Uniform Crime Statistics)

    --In the U.S., only 0.1% of all deaths of children age 14 and under are due to firearms. (* 1997 National Center for Health Statistics National Vital Statistics Report)

    --90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type. (* 1998 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms) There are more guns in the U.S. than cars (228,000,000 guns according to the 1998 FBI statistics and 207,754,000 automobiles according to the 1998 Federal Highway Administration registrations). Yet, you are 31 times more likely to be accidentally killed by a car than a gun according to the National Safety Council…despite cars having been registered and licensed for more than 100 years.

    --
    Less than 1% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime (much less violent crime). (*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994)

    --Two-thirds of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals. (* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994)

    --18-20 year olds commit over 23% of all gun murders. None of these criminals are allowed to purchase a handgun due to their age under current law. (* U.S. Treasury and Justice Dept. Report, 1999)

    --The national five day waiting period under the Brady Bill had no impact on murder or robbery, but slightly increased rape and aggravated assault rates by a few percent. For these two crime categories, the major effect was to delay law-abiding citizens from getting a gun for protection. The risks were greatest for crimes against women. (* Dr. John Lott Jr., Univ. of Chicago School of Law)

    --Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually even fired. (* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.)

    --Of the 250,000,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse. (* U.S. Dept. of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979)

    --92.7% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes. (* 1999 Police Survey, National Assoc. of Chiefs of Police)

    --The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Dept.,444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: 'Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'

    --Crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws:

    Violent Crime ……………………81% higher
    Murder ………………………….. 86% higher
    Rape …………………………… 25% higher
    Assault…………………………… 82% higher
    Robbery………………………….. 105% higher
    Auto Theft……………………….. 60% higher
    (* John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S. from 1977 through 1992.)

    Now, rather than just dismissing these facts, go ahead and "counter" them with some "hard facts that can't be debated."
    Last edited by BradshawsHairdresser; 12-06-2012 at 04:59 PM.

  2. #52
    Pro Bowler D Rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    Nuclear power was created to kill people too.

    kudos to mankind for figuring out a better use for it

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by BradshawsHairdresser View Post
    What were you implying when you said "I would prefer to peruse the study of a non-political entity"?




    Slap, you didn't counter the facts I presented about crime dropping in a town where gun ownership was mandated, and rising in a town where guns were banned. Nor did you bother to counter the facts presented in the Cato Institute Report, or Dr. Kleck's research. You simply chose to ignore them as inconsequential.

    Is there a high percentage of gun-related homicides in the US in comparison with other countries? Yes. But there is a high percentage of homicides WITHOUT GUNS in comparison with other countries. That tells me you can't just blame gun ownership.

    Murders by firearm in the US number less than 9000 per year...but Dr. Kleck's research found that some 2.5 million crimes are PREVENTED in this country every year because of firearms. In other words, for every murder due to a firearm in this country, more than 250 crimes are THWARTED due to a firearm. Those aren't the findings of a conservative with an agenda; those are the findings of Dr. Kleck, a liberal Democrat (see my earlier post). Even if he's off in his analysis, other studies would seem to indicate that for every crime committed with a firearm, at least 3 to 5 crimes are prevented by firearms. Even using the low figures from the Clinton Justice Department, firearms are used almost 50 times more often to save life than to take life. (* See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois; also Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," NIJ Research in Brief; available at http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt.)

    Now, here are some other facts for you to chew on (though I suspect you'll just dismiss them as well):

    --The NON-gun homicide rate for children in the U.S. is more than twice as high as in other Western countries. (* Kids and Guns, 2000, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention)

    --
    In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms. (* United Nations data) Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.

    --Over 80% of homicides against children age 13 and under are committed WITHOUT a gun. (* 1997, FBI Uniform Crime Statistics)

    --In the U.S., only 0.1% of all deaths of children age 14 and under are due to firearms. (* 1997 National Center for Health Statistics National Vital Statistics Report)

    --90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type. (* 1998 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms) There are more guns in the U.S. than cars (228,000,000 guns according to the 1998 FBI statistics and 207,754,000 automobiles according to the 1998 Federal Highway Administration registrations). Yet, you are 31 times more likely to be accidentally killed by a car than a gun according to the National Safety Council…despite cars having been registered and licensed for more than 100 years.

    --
    Less than 1% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime (much less violent crime). (*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994)

    --Two-thirds of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals. (* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994)

    --18-20 year olds commit over 23% of all gun murders. None of these criminals are allowed to purchase a handgun due to their age under current law. (* U.S. Treasury and Justice Dept. Report, 1999)

    --The national five day waiting period under the Brady Bill had no impact on murder or robbery, but slightly increased rape and aggravated assault rates by a few percent. For these two crime categories, the major effect was to delay law-abiding citizens from getting a gun for protection. The risks were greatest for crimes against women. (* Dr. John Lott Jr., Univ. of Chicago School of Law)

    --Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually even fired. (* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.)

    --Of the 250,000,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse. (* U.S. Dept. of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979)

    --92.7% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes. (* 1999 Police Survey, National Assoc. of Chiefs of Police)

    --The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Dept.,444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: 'Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'

    --Crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws:

    Violent Crime ……………………81% higher
    Murder ………………………….. 86% higher
    Rape …………………………… 25% higher
    Assault…………………………… 82% higher
    Robbery………………………….. 105% higher
    Auto Theft……………………….. 60% higher
    (* John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S. from 1977 through 1992.)

    Now, rather than just dismissing these facts, go ahead and "counter" them with some "hard facts that can't be debated."
    First off, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that anything you presented to back up your argument was "inconsequential". Those are your words, not mine. I merely stated that The Cato Institute was a conservative think tank with a pro-gun agenda, which they are. That doesn't make the report inconsequential, but in the case of any such study, one should consider the source.

    I never addressed Dr. Kleck's research at all, because I haven't had the opportunity to read it. Thank you for the link, though, because I would like to.

    The bottom line is just what I stated earlier. The United States has a lot more guns than anybody else and 80% of the gun deaths of the 23 richest countries in the world are Americans. This is a fact. This shows that the other 22 countries on that list do something different than we do. Now, I appreciate the statistics that show how handguns prevent crimes. But, that being the case, you would think that the incidences of violent crimes in those other countries would be much higher than the US. Sadly, they aren't.

    Now, if Dr. Kleck could study that and find a way to explain it, he would really be onto something.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Rock View Post
    kudos to mankind for figuring out a better use for it
    Yea, well we still got over 8,000 nukes in the US. But lecture other countries that they are not allowed to have them. Go figure. The elites are real a holes.

  5. #55
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    Slap, you didn't counter the facts I presented about crime dropping in a town where gun ownership was mandated, and rising in a town where guns were banned. Nor did you bother to counter the facts presented in the Cato Institute Report, or Dr. Kleck's research. You simply chose to ignore them as inconsequential.
    Yup FACTS are the places with lax gun laws has far less crime. The places with the strictest gun laws (i.e. Chicago) have the highest gun murders. So much for all the other BS. Criminals don't obey gun laws. So they can go about their criminal ways knowing that most of the other people won't be able to fight back.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Slapstick View Post
    The bottom line is just what I stated earlier. The United States has a lot more guns than anybody else and 80% of the gun deaths of the 23 richest countries in the world are Americans. This is a fact. This shows that the other 22 countries on that list do something different than we do. Now, I appreciate the statistics that show how handguns prevent crimes. But, that being the case, you would think that the incidences of violent crimes in those other countries would be much higher than the US. Sadly, they aren't.
    True, and that's true even if you take all gun crimes away...the US has a higher rate of violent crimes. Again, some 90% percent of violent crime in the US does not involve a gun. I suspect that if all guns in the US disappeared immediately, the US would still have a higher rate of violent crimes than those other countries.

    Could it be that America is, overall, a more violent society?
    Last edited by BradshawsHairdresser; 12-06-2012 at 06:33 PM.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by BradshawsHairdresser View Post
    True, and that's true even if you take all gun crimes away...the US has a higher rate of violent crimes. Again, some 90% percent of violent crime in the US does not involve a gun. I suspect that if all guns in the US disappeared immediately, the US would still have a higher rate of violent crimes than those other countries.

    Could it be that America is, overall, a more violent society?
    It sure seems that way, doesn't it?

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Pittsburgh View Post
    How many crappy drivers and road rage incidents will it take to finally outlaw cars. You even hear of people drinking and doing drugs and then driving and causing accidents that kill innocent people.

    If they would just outlaw cars things would be so much safer and we would have far less deaths.
    If they just allowed abortions until age 18, society would have a good shot at cleaning up the gene pool.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by D Rock View Post
    I see where you're going with that, but it's pretty hard to ignore the differences in the two objects.

    Guns were created to kill people, cars were created to move people places.
    The same thing with knives, subway trains, etc....

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradshawsHairdresser View Post
    Could it be that America is, overall, a more violent society?
    I think the class division is the problem. If everyone had jobs, good health, less stress, etc. we would have to worry about violence.

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