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Thread: A simple test we can all try.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Rock View Post
    you have things so twisted that you can't even follow what I'm saying.

    That man you wrote about is not one with Jesus. Saying the words over and over doesn't magically make it so. You can rail all you want about Christians and how awful they are, but it appears that you fail to be able to separate those in Christ's kingdom from those who call themselves Christians. In fact, those folks have it just as twisted as you do, but the only difference is that you use it to find reasons to hate and they use it to find reasons to be liked.
    OK, fine, so where do you draw the line from "man not one with Jesus" to "a sinner who is still one with Jesus?" You tell me where the line gets drawn. What if he did half the transgressions half as often? Would he qualify as one with Jesus then? What if he did 1/4 the amount of "sinning?" Would he be one with Jesus then? Shawn says he deals with addicts. At what point do they stop being addicts and start being Christian? What if a crack addict believes in Jesus but can't stop going back to smoking crack? What if that crack head says he does believe in Jesus but can't get off crack? Now, next you are going to tell me this is why we can't judge; the thing about the plank in your eye, etc., but clearly this is not the case. I have seen many Christians judge when they feel others are not Christian. It's circular logic. There is many people with such deep character flaws/bad mental wiring that no matter how much they try to "believe" in Jesus, they will still do horrible things, like pedophiles, rapists, etc.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    OK, fine, so where do you draw the line from "man not one with Jesus" to "a sinner who is still one with Jesus?" You tell me where the line gets drawn. What if he did half the transgressions half as often? Would he qualify as one with Jesus then? What if he did 1/4 the amount of "sinning?" Would he be one with Jesus then? Shawn says he deals with addicts. At what point do they stop being addicts and start being Christian? What if a crack addict believes in Jesus but can't stop going back to smoking crack? What if that crack head says he does believe in Jesus but can't get off crack? Now, next you are going to tell me this is why we can't judge; the thing about the plank in your eye, etc., but clearly this is not the case. I have seen many Christians judge when they feel others are not Christian. It's circular logic. There is many people with such deep character flaws/bad mental wiring that no matter how much they try to "believe" in Jesus, they will still do horrible things, like pedophiles, rapists, etc.
    That's like saying we can't call any NFL player an NFL player unless he plays at the level of LT.

    Christians are nothing more than a group of people working together to do God's work in the world. We still call the Bengals a football team even though they suck. We still call the Pirates a baseball team even though they haven't had a winning season in 20+ years.

    Theologically speaking, the line is "sin". Sin separates man from God. God provides man with the opportunity to repent from their sin. Repent is translated as "turn away" from sin and back you are in the good graces of God because all can be forgiven. Since man is imperfect, Christians would be in this constant state of jumping back and forth over the line without ever stopping. In fact, we'd be on the wrong side of the line because we're all so messed up, there's no way any of us is even aware of how much we sin. So you got to the crux of the problem with the old testament. And this is precisely why Jesus and the New Testament is needed to complete the story.

    Spoiler alert - JC dies for all of man's sin. The Jesus sacrifice atones for all of our sins and helps us cross into the good graces of God permanently and comfortably through faith in JC. Christians no longer have to concern themselves so much with the line. Good works won't get us into God's kingdom. Only Jesus can.

    The Bible story addresses all of your questions. Take it as fact or fiction. However you want to read it is up to you. Either way the logic of the story works out even if you have to read it as sci-fi for your own satisfaction.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    OK, fine, so where do you draw the line from "man not one with Jesus" to "a sinner who is still one with Jesus?" You tell me where the line gets drawn. What if he did half the transgressions half as often? Would he qualify as one with Jesus then? What if he did 1/4 the amount of "sinning?" Would he be one with Jesus then? Shawn says he deals with addicts. At what point do they stop being addicts and start being Christian? What if a crack addict believes in Jesus but can't stop going back to smoking crack? What if that crack head says he does believe in Jesus but can't get off crack? Now, next you are going to tell me this is why we can't judge; the thing about the plank in your eye, etc., but clearly this is not the case. I have seen many Christians judge when they feel others are not Christian. It's circular logic. There is many people with such deep character flaws/bad mental wiring that no matter how much they try to "believe" in Jesus, they will still do horrible things, like pedophiles, rapists, etc.
    It's not about simply saying you believe in Jesus. It's about truly accepting Jesus into your heart and accepting the gift of his grace, and above all, respecting that gift. If you've never been there and done that, then you probably wont be able to know what that really means. It's a life changing experience in a way you can't comprehend unless you have done it. I know, because I have been on all sides of this debate.

    If you sin, and continually do so banking on grace and forgiveness? You're not one with Jesus. You may want to be, and think you can be just by asking for forgiveness and proclaiming your beliefs, but you have to live it, not just speak it. Jesus lives in my heart, not on my tongue.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    Why mix them up? Because almost everyone I know who says they are Christian go to church. Gee whiz, I wonder why I would be relating the two? I dunno, only because everyone I know who says they are Christian attends church; why should I mix the two together? Huh? Doesn't the Catholic Church make going to church mandatory?
    God is a loving father, not a dictating book-keeper. I believe that people who play by rules and live just to check off their spiritual boxes and think that gets them a pass to heaven are incorrect in their beliefs. Similarly, I believe that those who repeatedly sin and think they can keep asking forgiveness are incorrect. Does that make me correct? Who knows..but that's my beliefs.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by flippy View Post
    That's like saying we can't call any NFL player an NFL player unless he plays at the level of LT.

    Christians are nothing more than a group of people working together to do God's work in the world. We still call the Bengals a football team even though they suck. We still call the Pirates a baseball team even though they haven't had a winning season in 20+ years.

    Theologically speaking, the line is "sin". Sin separates man from God. God provides man with the opportunity to repent from their sin. Repent is translated as "turn away" from sin and back you are in the good graces of God because all can be forgiven. Since man is imperfect, Christians would be in this constant state of jumping back and forth over the line without ever stopping. In fact, we'd be on the wrong side of the line because we're all so messed up, there's no way any of us is even aware of how much we sin. So you got to the crux of the problem with the old testament. And this is precisely why Jesus and the New Testament is needed to complete the story.

    Spoiler alert - JC dies for all of man's sin. The Jesus sacrifice atones for all of our sins and helps us cross into the good graces of God permanently and comfortably through faith in JC. Christians no longer have to concern themselves so much with the line. Good works won't get us into God's kingdom. Only Jesus can.

    The Bible story addresses all of your questions. Take it as fact or fiction. However you want to read it is up to you. Either way the logic of the story works out even if you have to read it as sci-fi for your own satisfaction.
    This is just circular logic to sell the story; it's full of trap doors and gimmicks. For instance, God has no sin, he is perfect, no flaws but he created man in a way that guaranteed sin. Oh, but we are supposed to feel ashamed for our sin, as if we ever had a real chance of not sinning. According to the Christians and Bible, man was given a "choice" and freedom of will...and immediately screwed up and sinned. So, I should feel ashamed because Adam and Eve chose to eat an apple? Every single Christian rushes to say "all man sins" as if we are just dirty scumbags who aren't worthy. Where did I sign up for this? Why am I put in a position where I automatically "sin" without any possible alternative? Oh, and, just as an example, if we have "dirty thoughts" we are sinning. Never mind that nature has put in a natural attraction to seek out sex as a way to ensure procreation. It's not a sin. We were wired that way from the start, but we are supposed to feel guilty about these impulses that were ingrained in us by nature? Why should we just assume we are dirty sinners? And why did God have to give up his only son if he is all-powerful and all-living? Why couldn't he find some other way to "forgive our sins?"

    Oh, and, too bad for all the rest of the world's religions, huh? You say only Jesus gets us into heaven, so every Muslim, Jew, etc. are just screwed no matter how good of a life they live? Funny thing is, other religions say the same thing about their Lord. I guess everyone else in the world that are not Christian are just screwed, right? So much so, that we can just bomb the crap out of them, kill them by the millions, but it doesn't really matter since they don't believe in Jesus any how. They just aren't as holy as us Christians so it's fine to invade and bomb their countries - they don't count. (I know you didn't say this, but millions of Christians actually believe this way, including GW Bush, and it just so happens to be completely polar opposite of the teachings of Christ, but don't bother to mind that.)

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Rock View Post
    God is a loving father, not a dictating book-keeper. I believe that people who play by rules and live just to check off their spiritual boxes and think that gets them a pass to heaven are incorrect in their beliefs. Similarly, I believe that those who repeatedly sin and think they can keep asking forgiveness are incorrect. Does that make me correct? Who knows..but that's my beliefs.
    Oh, OK, but you also believe that ONLY Jesus gets you in the heaven door. So every other person ever alive on this planet not worshiping Christ is damned to go to hell. Every Muslim, Jew, etc. is screwed no matter how pure of a life they live? That sounds like a real loving God, right?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Rock View Post
    It's not about simply saying you believe in Jesus. It's about truly accepting Jesus into your heart and accepting the gift of his grace, and above all, respecting that gift. If you've never been there and done that, then you probably wont be able to know what that really means. It's a life changing experience in a way you can't comprehend unless you have done it. I know, because I have been on all sides of this debate.

    If you sin, and continually do so banking on grace and forgiveness? You're not one with Jesus. You may want to be, and think you can be just by asking for forgiveness and proclaiming your beliefs, but you have to live it, not just speak it. Jesus lives in my heart, not on my tongue.
    I had an entire childhood where brain washing was a weekly process in my life, including 12 years of Sunday school. They made me feel like, since I cut snacks out for Lent, when I had that pudding cup, I was sinning and would be held out of heaven.

    The Catholic Church not only allowed for pedophiles to exist in their program, but moved them around KNOWING the priest would prey on other kids in their new community. But we are supposed to worship that institution? They knowingly allowed crimes against children to continue - they didn't even take the offenders out of circulation, but instead hid their crimes and moved them to a new place, where the priests were free to rape more children. And they thought Penn State was bad.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    Oh, OK, but you also believe that ONLY Jesus gets you in the heaven door. So every other person ever alive on this planet not worshiping Christ is damned to go to hell. Every Muslim, Jew, etc. is screwed no matter how pure of a life they live? That sounds like a real loving God, right?

    I never said that, but you sure like to say those types of things for me. I believe that Jesus died for the sin of man, and I have accepted that gift and am thankful for it. That says nothing of my thoughts on other religions. I'd appreciate it if you didn't attempt to put words in my mouth.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    I had an entire childhood where brain washing was a weekly process in my life, including 12 years of Sunday school. They made me feel like, since I cut snacks out for Lent, when I had that pudding cup, I was sinning and would be held out of heaven.

    The Catholic Church not only allowed for pedophiles to exist in their program, but moved them around KNOWING the priest would prey on other kids in their new community. But we are supposed to worship that institution? They knowingly allowed crimes against children to continue - they didn't even take the offenders out of circulation, but instead hid their crimes and moved them to a new place, where the priests were free to rape more children. And they thought Penn State was bad.
    Do you actually even read what I write, or do you just go off firing on whatever you want to say?

    I had a childhood full of church too. I never bought in to it, and for several years I was an outspoken atheist and felt that religion was for the weak and nothing but a power play used to control people. I went down a really lonely and depressing path through my college years. I feel that Jesus then pursued me and offered his love and friendship, and I accepted it. My life has been night and day different over the past 2 years because of that.

    I still don't but in to the church culture. I go to church maybe 10 times a year, and only do so when I feel like I want to hear about God's message and the teachings of Jesus. The vast majority of churches I will not set foot in, because I feel they are corrupt and full on people just looking to judge others and try to win some game that doesn't exist.

    I think the Bible has been drastically altered throughout history for the sake of controlling people. I read the stories about Jesus to know him better, but I don't think the Bible as it stands in English translations really means all that much.


    You can continue to say things in our discussion that aren't true, or you can stop and actually read what Shawn and I have been saying. It's your choice.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    This is just circular logic to sell the story; it's full of trap doors and gimmicks. For instance, God has no sin, he is perfect, no flaws but he created man in a way that guaranteed sin. Oh, but we are supposed to feel ashamed for our sin, as if we ever had a real chance of not sinning. According to the Christians and Bible, man was given a "choice" and freedom of will...and immediately screwed up and sinned. So, I should feel ashamed because Adam and Eve chose to eat an apple? Every single Christian rushes to say "all man sins" as if we are just dirty scumbags who aren't worthy. Where did I sign up for this? Why am I put in a position where I automatically "sin" without any possible alternative? Oh, and, just as an example, if we have "dirty thoughts" we are sinning. Never mind that nature has put in a natural attraction to seek out sex as a way to ensure procreation. It's not a sin. We were wired that way from the start, but we are supposed to feel guilty about these impulses that were ingrained in us by nature? Why should we just assume we are dirty sinners? And why did God have to give up his only son if he is all-powerful and all-living? Why couldn't he find some other way to "forgive our sins?"

    Oh, and, too bad for all the rest of the world's religions, huh? You say only Jesus gets us into heaven, so every Muslim, Jew, etc. are just screwed no matter how good of a life they live? Funny thing is, other religions say the same thing about their Lord. I guess everyone else in the world that are not Christian are just screwed, right? So much so, that we can just bomb the crap out of them, kill them by the millions, but it doesn't really matter since they don't believe in Jesus any how. They just aren't as holy as us Christians so it's fine to invade and bomb their countries - they don't count. (I know you didn't say this, but millions of Christians actually believe this way, including GW Bush, and it just so happens to be completely polar opposite of the teachings of Christ, but don't bother to mind that.)
    The only choices we have control over are our own. I think when we focus our attention on the flaws in others, we're doing so to avoid our own issues.

    Christians are a bunch of f ups. So are you and I. Ok. So what? That doesn't change the attitude and approach we can choose to take in our lives. My life, My choice. Your life, your choice. And who are you to assume others are doing the best they can with what they've been given. I prefer to think everyone's doing the best they can and I'm the one that needs work.

    Who is this "nature" that you speak of? How can this "nature" person pre-wire us. How can this "nature" ingrain us with thoughts? Sounds like the same type of made up BS you are saying God is. One could argue both are made up. So if you get to make up "nature" for yourself and call on "nature" to be a guiding influence in the decisions you make in life, then why not let others make up their "God" that they believe is their guiding influence in life?

    Sounds to me like DRock and Shawn are open to you having choice to believe in nature, but you seem to have issue with them believing in God.

    I get your frustrations. I've had the same ones and continue to from time to time. I'm just suggesting both sides of this argument/discussion have their own set of built up assumptions that are difficult for both sides to strip away.

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