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Thread: A simple test we can all try.

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  1. #1
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    A simple test we can all try.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw

    Can it really be this simple? It appears to be, when you apply logic. Of course, living in denial or cult-like state is a different story. Always search for truth, is how Socrates and those dudes tell us. Always search for the REAL TRUTH.

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    Pro Bowler D Rock's Avatar
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    I asked Jesus to appear, and he did it. Problem is...people don't see what they don't truly want to see.

    Appearing doesn't always occur in a visual sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Rock View Post
    I asked Jesus to appear, and he did it. Problem is...people don't see what they don't truly want to see.

    Appearing doesn't always occur in a visual sense.
    Then the Bible needs to get more specific or it's just not very informative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Rock View Post
    people don't see what they don't truly want to see.
    Absolutely...put a devout Christian and a devout atheist in a room together, read them the same exact passages, and the interpretation of those exact same words will be 100% polar opposites of one another.

    Similarly, you can put the "people see only what they want to see" to the test even in the football realm. Take one guy who believes Ben is a truly elite QB and another guy who thinks Ben is a glorified game manager, give them the same exact stats, and each guy will use those same numbers to argue that this further proves that his side of the story is even more correct. Taking the Ben scenario even further, you can take one guy who believes that Ben is a serial rapist and another guy who believes both allegations are complete shams, give them the exact same evidence, and both guys will argue that the evidence supports their side fully and cannot comprehend how the other side could possibly believe otherwise. People see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear, and believe what they want to believe.


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    Pro Bowler D Rock's Avatar
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    There's your second problem. It's not about what's in the Bible. It's about what's in your heart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Rock View Post
    There's your second problem. It's not about what's in the Bible. It's about what's in your heart.
    That's actually NOT my problem; conversely, it's my point. "What's in your heart" is what matters, not what some Pope or priest, or congregation tells you. "What's in my heart" is what matters the most and why in trumps many so-called Christians who pronounce their faith while having the same mean heart when it really comes down to it. Just one more local example. A local publisher of a little local magazine had a monthly column where he endlessly plugged being "conservative, Christian and republican" ad nauseum with a photo with his family. Every single issue he would repeat how he was so super into Jesus and being GOP. But not once, but twice, he went on a coke/booze fueled bender where he disappeared for a week or 2, leaving his family and wife not knowing where he was, while he was accompanied with hookers. But, upon his returning, he would pop back up with his column and lecture everyone on giving second chances and how "He has sinned, as everyone has, and he has 1st-hand understanding of how one can fall but rise back up with the help of Jesus." I'm sorry, he's a douche bag. He's a con man. He's a liar. He's a pig. He even strikes women.

    But under the Christian model, he can just continue to do these awful things, as long as he says he is sorry, and, bingo, just like that, he is back into the fold, until his next indiscretion, at which point he will just say "he sinned but is back with Jesus" and all will be fine again. At what point do you stop going along with the "he sinned but he is sorry" and just call him what he is, which is a creep, who will never stop being a creep, and will keep telling you how he is cool with Jesus again? How about a child molester who keeps raping children but also keeps finding Jesus. You OK with him? After all, we all sin, so we can't judge him.

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    Pro Bowler D Rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    That's actually NOT my problem; conversely, it's my point. "What's in your heart" is what matters, not what some Pope or priest, or congregation tells you. "What's in my heart" is what matters the most and why in trumps many so-called Christians who pronounce their faith while having the same mean heart when it really comes down to it. Just one more local example. A local publisher of a little local magazine had a monthly column where he endlessly plugged being "conservative, Christian and republican" ad nauseum with a photo with his family. Every single issue he would repeat how he was so super into Jesus and being GOP. But not once, but twice, he went on a coke/booze fueled bender where he disappeared for a week or 2, leaving his family and wife not knowing where he was, while he was accompanied with hookers. But, upon his returning, he would pop back up with his column and lecture everyone on giving second chances and how "He has sinned, as everyone has, and he has 1st-hand understanding of how one can fall but rise back up with the help of Jesus." I'm sorry, he's a douche bag. He's a con man. He's a liar. He's a pig. He even strikes women.

    But under the Christian model, he can just continue to do these awful things, as long as he says he is sorry, and, bingo, just like that, he is back into the fold, until his next indiscretion, at which point he will just say "he sinned but is back with Jesus" and all will be fine again. At what point do you stop going along with the "he sinned but he is sorry" and just call him what he is, which is a creep, who will never stop being a creep, and will keep telling you how he is cool with Jesus again? How about a child molester who keeps raping children but also keeps finding Jesus. You OK with him? After all, we all sin, so we can't judge him.

    you have things so twisted that you can't even follow what I'm saying.

    That man you wrote about is not one with Jesus. Saying the words over and over doesn't magically make it so. You can rail all you want about Christians and how awful they are, but it appears that you fail to be able to separate those in Christ's kingdom from those who call themselves Christians. In fact, those folks have it just as twisted as you do, but the only difference is that you use it to find reasons to hate and they use it to find reasons to be liked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Rock View Post
    you have things so twisted that you can't even follow what I'm saying.

    That man you wrote about is not one with Jesus. Saying the words over and over doesn't magically make it so. You can rail all you want about Christians and how awful they are, but it appears that you fail to be able to separate those in Christ's kingdom from those who call themselves Christians. In fact, those folks have it just as twisted as you do, but the only difference is that you use it to find reasons to hate and they use it to find reasons to be liked.
    OK, fine, so where do you draw the line from "man not one with Jesus" to "a sinner who is still one with Jesus?" You tell me where the line gets drawn. What if he did half the transgressions half as often? Would he qualify as one with Jesus then? What if he did 1/4 the amount of "sinning?" Would he be one with Jesus then? Shawn says he deals with addicts. At what point do they stop being addicts and start being Christian? What if a crack addict believes in Jesus but can't stop going back to smoking crack? What if that crack head says he does believe in Jesus but can't get off crack? Now, next you are going to tell me this is why we can't judge; the thing about the plank in your eye, etc., but clearly this is not the case. I have seen many Christians judge when they feel others are not Christian. It's circular logic. There is many people with such deep character flaws/bad mental wiring that no matter how much they try to "believe" in Jesus, they will still do horrible things, like pedophiles, rapists, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    OK, fine, so where do you draw the line from "man not one with Jesus" to "a sinner who is still one with Jesus?" You tell me where the line gets drawn. What if he did half the transgressions half as often? Would he qualify as one with Jesus then? What if he did 1/4 the amount of "sinning?" Would he be one with Jesus then? Shawn says he deals with addicts. At what point do they stop being addicts and start being Christian? What if a crack addict believes in Jesus but can't stop going back to smoking crack? What if that crack head says he does believe in Jesus but can't get off crack? Now, next you are going to tell me this is why we can't judge; the thing about the plank in your eye, etc., but clearly this is not the case. I have seen many Christians judge when they feel others are not Christian. It's circular logic. There is many people with such deep character flaws/bad mental wiring that no matter how much they try to "believe" in Jesus, they will still do horrible things, like pedophiles, rapists, etc.
    That's like saying we can't call any NFL player an NFL player unless he plays at the level of LT.

    Christians are nothing more than a group of people working together to do God's work in the world. We still call the Bengals a football team even though they suck. We still call the Pirates a baseball team even though they haven't had a winning season in 20+ years.

    Theologically speaking, the line is "sin". Sin separates man from God. God provides man with the opportunity to repent from their sin. Repent is translated as "turn away" from sin and back you are in the good graces of God because all can be forgiven. Since man is imperfect, Christians would be in this constant state of jumping back and forth over the line without ever stopping. In fact, we'd be on the wrong side of the line because we're all so messed up, there's no way any of us is even aware of how much we sin. So you got to the crux of the problem with the old testament. And this is precisely why Jesus and the New Testament is needed to complete the story.

    Spoiler alert - JC dies for all of man's sin. The Jesus sacrifice atones for all of our sins and helps us cross into the good graces of God permanently and comfortably through faith in JC. Christians no longer have to concern themselves so much with the line. Good works won't get us into God's kingdom. Only Jesus can.

    The Bible story addresses all of your questions. Take it as fact or fiction. However you want to read it is up to you. Either way the logic of the story works out even if you have to read it as sci-fi for your own satisfaction.

  10. #10
    Pro Bowler D Rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    OK, fine, so where do you draw the line from "man not one with Jesus" to "a sinner who is still one with Jesus?" You tell me where the line gets drawn. What if he did half the transgressions half as often? Would he qualify as one with Jesus then? What if he did 1/4 the amount of "sinning?" Would he be one with Jesus then? Shawn says he deals with addicts. At what point do they stop being addicts and start being Christian? What if a crack addict believes in Jesus but can't stop going back to smoking crack? What if that crack head says he does believe in Jesus but can't get off crack? Now, next you are going to tell me this is why we can't judge; the thing about the plank in your eye, etc., but clearly this is not the case. I have seen many Christians judge when they feel others are not Christian. It's circular logic. There is many people with such deep character flaws/bad mental wiring that no matter how much they try to "believe" in Jesus, they will still do horrible things, like pedophiles, rapists, etc.
    It's not about simply saying you believe in Jesus. It's about truly accepting Jesus into your heart and accepting the gift of his grace, and above all, respecting that gift. If you've never been there and done that, then you probably wont be able to know what that really means. It's a life changing experience in a way you can't comprehend unless you have done it. I know, because I have been on all sides of this debate.

    If you sin, and continually do so banking on grace and forgiveness? You're not one with Jesus. You may want to be, and think you can be just by asking for forgiveness and proclaiming your beliefs, but you have to live it, not just speak it. Jesus lives in my heart, not on my tongue.

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