Jesus and Horus

[Shawn]

To keep the temptation to discuss religion in the sports section to a minimum...and to rebut ignorance I thought we could discuss it here. There is danger going to a site with motive in order to gain historical information...that includes atheist and Christian sites. On one side you have people who live lives of faith based upon rules, regulations, and traditions taught to them. Then you have others repulsed by said beliefs for varying reasons. There are very few true seekers...most people accept what is fed to them...what they want to hear...what they want to read...on both sides of these arguments.

First, I am a follower of Christ who believes the Bible to be inerrant...but only in the original languages. I believe the English translations to have serious and significant problems. There are a few of us who have challenged many church doctrines founded upon faulted translations. I say this so those reading this know where I'm coming from when I post this.

So, when I see someone list anything from religious tolerance.org...it makes me chuckle a bit. There is much information, most of it is propaganda. Their Horus Jesus chart is laughable and deceptive. Lets go through it...

RT states Horus conception was like Jesus...born of a virgin. Isis was married to Osiris. His birth happened when Isis collected the dismembered body parts of Osiris...and magically formed Horus...well except Osiris penis...she fashioned for him a golden penis...lol. Yup, sounds much like the story of Christ. Right out of the gate...we can see RT has an agenda and is being deceptive.

Second, only begotten son of Osiris? In order for this part of the story to have any real similarity...Mary would have had to collect the body parts of Joseph...and fashion Jesus together with them. God the creator is of course alive...Osiris is dead. Horus is basically a divine reincarnation of his dad with a golden penis. Once again very deceptive.

Comparing the name Isis-meri with Mary? Looks like someone is reaching.

comparing the foster dads names Seb and Joseph? Really? Someone would have to prove that one to me in the original languages.

Of royal descent? While Jesus can trace his lineage back to King David...his parents were just everyday common folk.



horus was born in a swamp...not witnessed by shepards...another lie of RT.


there was no star that announced Horus birth...nor angels that heralded his birth.

the Bible makes no mention of 3 wisemen...this is merely tradition.


i did find one similarity...Seth wanted to kill Horus...Herod wanted to kill Jesus...but Herod wasn't related to Jesus...Seth was Horus uncle.

ok I grow tired...I can go on and on with this if someone needs more help with this.

Moral of the story is be careful where you get your information.

[lloydroid]

Sorry, not buying it. I respect your right to believe whatever you wish to. But, you should return the favor and respect the right of others to have their own beliefs and not ridicule them, as if your religion is fool-proof and undoubtedly the entire truth, without question and beyond approach. You say you "chuckle" at the web site for tolerance. But in your attempt to invalidate the claims, you nit picked on a few minor assertions and were left gaffing at some of the MAJOR similarities between the Horus and Christ stories. So you nick picked on a few minor touted similarities but failed to address that Horus was born of a virgin mother, was son of God, had 12 disciples, etc. So "Meri" isn't the exact same name as "Mary." Wow, big deal. We are talking about cultures that had languages that were completely different from another; as if we should expect the virgin mother to have the same name. That is laughable. And I find it highly ironic that you question a sources credibility but your ENTIRE BELIEF system is based on information with no basis in any science whatsoever. And next you will throw the faith card at me. Once you enter that realm, you have no stronger claim than ANY religion based on their faith and their holy books. Why is your version of God more credible than Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc? Who is it that can claim any superior proof over another?

Oh, and if you want to pooh pooh the source that exposes how similar Jesus and Horus stories are, I guess you care going to claim none of these sources have it right either.

[url]http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/Is_Jesus_Simply_a_Retelling_of_the_Horus_Myth[/url]

[url]http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/1678/claimed-similarities-between-jesus-christ-and-horus-and-other-gods[/url]

[url]http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/42035[/url]

1.Both were conceived of a virgin.
2.Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
3.Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.
4.Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
5.Both foster fathers were of royal descent.
6.Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).
7.Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.
Horus; birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).
8.Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.
9.Both births were announced by angels (this si nto the same as number 7).
10.Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.
11.Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".
12.After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
13.To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
14.When Horus came of age, he had a special ritual where hsi eye was restored. When Jesus (and other Jews) come of age, they have a special ritual called a Bar Mitzvah.
15.Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at this coming-of-age ritual.
Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.
16.Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus. Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan.
17.Both were baptized at age 30.
18.Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.
19.Both Anup and John were later beheaded.
20.Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.
21.Both Horus and Jesus successfully resist this temptation.
22.Both have 12 disciples.
23.Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.
24.Horus "stilled the sea by his power." Jesus commanded the sea to be still by saying, "Peace, be still."
25.Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (Note the similarity in names when you say them out loud. Further, Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)
26.Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Bethanu (literally, "house of Anu").
27.Both gods delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
28.Both were crucified.
29.Both were crucified next to two thieves.
30.Both were buried in a tomb.
31.Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).
32.Both had their resurrection announced by women.
33.Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.
34.Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").
35.Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.
36.Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
37.Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.
38.Horus was born in Anu ("the place of bread") and Jesus was born in Bethlehem ("the house of bread").
39."The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Typhon. The infant Jesus was carried into Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod. Concerning the infant Jesus, the New Testament states the following prophecy: 'Out of Egypt have I called my son.'"
40.Both were transfigured on the mount.
41.The catacombs of Rome have pictures of the infant Horus being held by his mother, not unlike the modern-day images of "Madonna and Child."
Noted English author C. W. King says that both Isis and Mary are called "Immaculate".
42.Horus says: "Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to give you even more power." And Jesus says: "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once."
Horus was identified with the Tau (cross).

So let me ask: You say we need to question sources, but what is your source? It's the Bible itself. Why is that source so infallible? NOTHING is fact-based or has any scientific backing. And yet, we are supposed to accept it as an unquestionable source of fact? Why? Feel free to believe what you want; but if you are going to "chuckle" at other sources, be careful of what you are ridiculing, as that kind of mindset probably applies to your supposed proof a million times over. The Bible contradicts itself a myriad of times, but it is the undisputed truth? How can something that offers conflicting assertions be infallible? It can't.

[url]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm#INDEX[/url]

[Shawn]

Because I chuckle at misinformation which minimizes the Bible, and Christ's sacrifice on the cross to a fairy tale which was stolen from Egyptian mythology...I'm some how not respecting your belief system? Sorry, that I am not buying. If your belief system is about ridiculing the belief systems of others through misinformation...well you're right I have no respect for that.

If you can read the story of Horus, and see any real similarities to the story of Christ...then it's what you want to see. Listen, I'm not a believer in hell...nor judgment of others...so believe what you wish. But, just make sure your research is sound. The Horus...Jesus connection has been given up by even the most devout of Christian haters. Any similarities seen are obvious stretches by hands that hate the Christian religion. Listen, I get it. There is much about church doctrine I do not agree with...and actually find repulsive...specifically notions of eternal hell...which are not supported in the Original languages. I'll do some debate with myself if I want to engage in yet another Horus debate...not sure it's worth it. But if you are insistent then I suppose I can be talked into it.

[lloydroid]

Because I chuckle at misinformation which minimizes the Bible, and Christ's sacrifice on the cross to a fairy tale which was stolen from Egyptian mythology...I'm some how not respecting your belief system? Sorry, that I am not buying. If your belief system is about ridiculing the belief systems of others through misinformation...well you're right I have no respect for that.

If you can read the story of Horus, and see any real similarities to the story of Christ...then it's what you want to see. Listen, I'm not a believer in hell...nor judgment of others...so believe what you wish. But, just make sure your research is sound. The Horus...Jesus connection has been given up by even the most devout of Christian haters. Any similarities seen are obvious stretches by hands that hate the Christian religion. Listen, I get it. There is much about church doctrine I do not agree with...and actually find repulsive...specifically notions of eternal hell...which are not supported in the Original languages. I'll do some debate with myself if I want to engage in yet another Horus debate...not sure it's worth it. But if you are insistent then I suppose I can be talked into it.

OK, let's drop the Horus comparison; we will just go in circles and it's not that meaningful to me. Have it your way: There are no glaring similarities between the Jesus and Horus stories, none at all (born of a virgin mother, 12 disciples, only son of God, etc.) Look, this discussion cannot advance, because you take the Bible as "fact" and an undisputed reference, when, in fact, in the context of logic, that just isn't even a starting point of discussion. Also, you already pick and choose what you believe and don't believe in the Bible, so where do we even begin? How can parts of it be "undisputed fact" while other parts of it, you don't buy into at all? I just can't wrap my mind around how you can do both. "THIS is 100% true, because it says so in the Bible! Oh, this stuff that is said in the Bible? I don't believe in that."

I know some dudes who totally didn't buy religion and then got hooked on drugs and then got super into Jesus. OK, whatever works for you. I think religion is an aid that some people need. I know other people who have self control issues who are all in your face with Jesus, and yet these same people cheat on their wife, go on coke benders, etc. Those people are searching for something that tells them, "Your sins are OK, we all sin and just ask Jesus to forgive and you are fine," and these same people keep doing the same dirty crap over and over. Sorry, can't buy their "beliefs" either.

[Shawn]

OK, let's drop the Horus comparison; we will just go in circles and it's not that meaningful to me. Have it your way: There are no glaring similarities between the Jesus and Horus stories, none at all (born of a virgin mother, 12 disciples, only son of God, etc.) Look, this discussion cannot advance, because you take the Bible as "fact" and an undisputed reference, when, in fact, in the context of logic, that just isn't even a starting point of discussion. Also, you already pick and choose what you believe and don't believe in the Bible, so where do we even begin? How can parts of it be "undisputed fact" while other parts of it, you don't buy into at all? I just can't wrap my mind around how you can do both. "THIS is 100% true, because it says so in the Bible! Oh, this stuff that is said in the Bible? I don't believe in that."

I know some dudes who totally didn't buy religion and then got hooked on drugs and then got super into Jesus. OK, whatever works for you. I think religion is an aid that some people need. I know other people who have self control issues who are all in your face with Jesus, and yet these same people cheat on their wife, go on coke benders, etc. Those people are searching for something that tells them, "Your sins are OK, we all sin and just ask Jesus to forgive and you are fine," and these same people keep doing the same dirty crap over and over. Sorry, can't buy their "beliefs" either.

You are certainly entitled to believe however you wish. If your life is full of joy and peace without any belief in God, who am I to question that? But, you really have no idea what I believe because I haven't gone into lengthy discourse about that. I don't take the Bible as a history book, though I believe some of it to be historical. The way I interpret passages from the original languages is very different than most...the way I apply it to my own life is different than most as well.

but, if you allow the way other people live their life to influence your belief system...well that's your deal. People are people...most engage in unhealthy behaviors. I doubt you are clean and spotless. I know I'm not. I see life less about pointing out other people's hypocracy and more about looking at my own...growing.

[lloydroid]

You are certainly entitled to believe however you wish. If your life is full of joy and peace without any belief in God, who am I to question that?

Not sure how I would "rank my joy" but I am generally at peace and happy most of the time. What that means? I don't really know. I don't find myself often evaluating my level of joy vs. others. I think, that, in itself, is probably an indication of not being on sound ground. (i.e. comparing your level of joy to others.)

But, you really have no idea what I believe because I haven't gone into lengthy discourse about that.

Actually, I _do_ have some idea of what you believe, because you have stated so. You have offered specifics as to what you believe in the Bible, and what you do not. Remember?

I don't take the Bible as a history book, though I believe some of it to be historical. The way I interpret passages from the original languages is very different than most...the way I apply it to my own life is different than most as well.

Whatever makes you happy.

but, if you allow the way other people live their life to influence your belief system...well that's your deal.

Hmmm, that's kind of a straw man argument. Did I ever say I let other people live their life influence my belief system? Well, observing those who make certain claims living in hypocrisy would influence me some. Sure. If everyone who claimed to be a Christian walked the walk, I'd be more inclined to think there was more substance there. But many of the most twisted, hateful, mean people I know claim to be religious. That is some food for thought.

People are people...most engage in unhealthy behaviors. I doubt you are clean and spotless. I know I'm not. I see life less about pointing out other people's hypocracy and more about looking at my own...growing.

"Unhealthy behaviors" could be things like not exercising or eating too much fast food, or whatever. I'm sorry, but many people who are self-professed Christians often have deeper issues and demons than those who don't need a mantra to be a good person. On average, I find many Bible thumpers to treat other human beings worse than the average, regular guy. I find that many who don't need religion to treat other human beings better than those who go to church each week. There are many exceptions, however. My father-in-law is a Christian who absolutely makes the world better, is always giving to those less fortunate and doesn't cram his beliefs down others' throats. Just because some people think that by giving an envelop at church each week has "them covered" for their God duty doesn't mean that it's true. Many of those who don't go to church live out the teachings of Jesus much better than some who profess to believe in Christ. The teachings of Christ are awesome guidelines to just being a good person; something that comes naturally to many who don't adhere to any organized religion. Some of the worst crooks in a community are often found to be very active in their church.

[Shawn]

And yes, none of those sites are correct. Here let me help you with some information...there are even some links to some non biased third party sites within this debate. It's actually a reasonable debate by two guys on the opposite side of this argument. Read through it all...then let me know what you think. It might save us time.

[url]http://stupidevilbastard.com/2005/01/ending_the_myth_of_horus/[/url]

[flippy]

I've heard there's many old religions that have stories similar to the Jesus story that predate the Jesus story from the Egyptians to the Chinese to the Indians.

At the end of the day, I think most people agree they run into some challenges in life that are bigger than they can handle, so they need to believe in something bigger than themselves to get through it. It's how we deal with things from death to sickness to mental illness to alcoholism to little white lies creeping into our conscience.

Whatever we need to cope, fine. Religion is essentially for those that can't cope. And at some point we're all destined to not be able to cope with something. And religion can make us feel better.

Who's to say what religion is correct. Or even true? I doubt it's possible for any religion to be true really. None of the educated men of religion ever created the world. They really have no idea what happened. It's all our best guesses. And we divide into different camps of belief mostly because of our upbringing. We're mostly misinformed. But it's not like you can be truly informed about this stuff because none of it is verifiable. Religion is just a form of philosophical bs. Great stuff to ponder. Lots of smart people consider it. Many blindly follow and it's a core part of our society so questioning it will make one an outcast.

I've seen the Bible transform people's lives. So I have no issue with it or religion in general. But if we want to be very logical about religion, no one knows. We can all point to Jesus from 2000 years ago, but think about how we fondly remember the 70s Steelers and that was just 40 years ago. Our feelings of nostalgia are very powerful. So in the same way we build up football players from 40 years ago, imagine how much we build up a man from 2000 years ago.

I say let people question. We can debate this stuff to no end, but there's never much in the way of fact to ever back anything up. Just our own hope which is stronger than fact. At the end of the day, people become believers because this stuff helped them through something so they now have faith in the transformational powers.

Why can't this stuff of building hope in the hearts of men have transformational powers and still be just a made up story all at the same time. Does something have to be true to have value?

I don't really care what anyone believes. That's their decision. I would say odds are probably 99.9% on the side of the agnostics being right. And even with that being true, religions have created the best self help books in the history of the world and are great avenues for people to engage in thinking beyond themselves. It's a win win no matter which side you're on. The thing I hate about religion though is the indoctrination and the creation of a cult like following.

Maybe the Christians are right? But there's no way to definitively prove they are.

[Shawn]

And Flippy I certainly respect your right to believe that. The longer I do this faith walk the less I believe it's about I'm right and you are wrong...or vice versa. Do I believe God is only for Christians? Nope. Do I believe God the Creator has revealed himself to multiple people's in multiple cultures? Oh yes. Do I believe faiths often interlap truths? Most certainly.

Now where you and I will disagree is when you talk about the benefit of religion. IMO, religion is about man taking things of God and using them for their purposes. I believe religion is a prison, man made rules, man made doctrines, and for man made purposes. I believe religion has its purpose...like a child on a Bike with training wheels. It gets a person looking and seeking...points them in a direction. But, religion shouldn't be the end point. I truly believe God the Creator is a personal God, who wants a relationship with His creation. And that relationship is not based on a fear of punishment but love and gratitude. I believe He is willing to reveal Himself personally to an individual who seeks Him.

Things began to change for the better in my faith when I began to research for myself. When I did, I realized many different things. One is that around 500 AD, man significantly altered the translations of Holy Scriptures in several key places...Justinian wanted to use the Bible as a weapon to control. Second, I could think, reason and seek for myself without organized religion, without being boxed in a told who God is, and truly experience for myself. The closest I have seen in "religious" circles to what I believe is the Christian Universalisal Reconciliationists, and the Quakers. Both both sets of believers are loosely formed, with little organization...for good reasons.

[flippy]

The religions are the ones that came up with doctrines that the Bible is the word of God for example. I suspect much of what you've come to believe wouldn't have happened without religion.

That's fine. Whatever it takes to change people from an inward focus to an outward focus and positive attitude makes us all better.

Who's to say if we can or can't have a personal relationship with God? Maybe there was this God guy that created the world and it was his prototype that he threw away before he went on to create a masterpiece. Maybe the universe is his trash can for all we know. I'm not disagreeing with any of what you're saying, just suggesting the opposite is worthy of discussion. Both sides of the argument are probably way off anyone. No one can know this stuff. That's what makes this a topic so difficult for most folks to discuss.

Did you hear the story of the bearded Sihk woman a few weeks back that was being ridiculed? And her positive response? I read some about that religion and though, wow, those people really get it. But they've got their own goofy rituals. I grew up Catholic and they have loads of goofy rituals. And those are just another thing that gets ingrained in you. Weird how much doctrine you can learn through rituals.

It's all good whatever people want to think. As long as people want to improve. To look beyond themselves. We're all better off. It's good to have hope and belief in something whatever it may be. Go for it. It's all an unknowable mystery.