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Thread: Tomlin wanted Vick in Pgh

  1. #41
    Hall of Famer Mister Pittsburgh's Avatar
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    The Steelers scouts and Colbert put Sean Lee as the top ranked LB that fit the Steelers. He dropped to the second round and was there for us to pick. Tomlin made the call to go against the Steelers way of doing things which is to take BPA to take Jason Worilds. His reasoning was moronic.

  2. #42
    Hall of Famer DukieBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flasteel View Post
    You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, so I'm trying to figure out how you can't see the impact of culture in this type of behavior. Culture is the lens by which all people view their moral, ethical, and value systems. There are very few behaviors which transcend all known cultures and can be agreed upon as good or bad everyone. If you think that the torture and killing of animals is among these sacred behaviors, then you are simply wrong.

    In Spain, bulls are not only tortured and killed for sport; the top matadors are revered like all-star football or baseball players in America. It's not just bullfighting over there either. They torture and kill animals all across the country and throughout the year for myriad different festivals.

    Look how animals are treated within the food industries - in this country and every other one for that matter. Some are treated in unspeakably inhumane fashions for the sake of mass producing food, while others are killed and tossed aside like garbage in the pursuit of the target prey. Look at how the Japanese fishermen treat the dolphins which get caught in their nets or what they do to sharks, just to lop off their fins. Look at zoos, lab experiments, canned hunting camps, or a hundred other examples of culturally condoned animal cruelty...they're everywhere.

    In some countries dogs are on the menu. In others, they are treated as nothing more than a lowly beast whose only purpose is to serve man. Drop you in the heart of China as a baby and I guarantee that you’ll grow up to be a dog-eating, finger-licking fool, who routinely asks for second helpings. You might look at a dog no different than you look at a rat (which was on your dinner plate the night before).

    You and I view this type of behavior as wrong because we were raised in cultures which value animal rights and largely view dogs as man's best friend. Other people aren't. Whether it's in China or an area in our own back yard, there are segments of people everywhere who are raised to think differently. I'm not even talking about individuals who are raised in specific households without morals or values, I'm talking about whole populations and societies which condone and normalize cruelty to animals. Dog fighting alone has been around for centuries and is still widely practiced across the world and across this country in black, white, and Hispanic cultures. Usually they are poor and ignorant communities, but they none-the-less shape the morals and values of those who are raised in them.

    In Mike Vick's case, he probably never started to live outside that culture until he got to Virginia Tech. I can easily see how someone born and raised in an environment where dog-fighting and killing is the norm, would carry that belief with him. I'm sure he's known it was an illegal act since he was a small child, but the law (and law enforcement) in his community is most likely not in step with most folks' value systems. Mike Tomlin is from the same town as Mike Vick. I'm sure he knows first-hand the exact environment Vick was raised in and how that shaped his views. It seems pretty natural to want to give him a chance, if he thought he could help this team.

    Now that Vick has been properly introduced to the concept of humanity and paid his debt, he should be given that second chance to show that he can operate within the acceptable laws and mores of our larger society. If you are the type of individual who is normally in the business of given others a second chance, then how can you not extend that same courtesy to someone who by all other measures (well...most other measures) is a decent human being?

    How could others take such umbrage with Tomlin for having that type of understanding and forgiveness...to the point where they would give up Steeler football? I don't even get that, but hey…I support anyone's right to feel that way.

    How many of you who hold that opinion, call yourself a Christian? Isn't forgiveness a core value of your professed belief system? I'm no Christian, but I find it funny when people wear that label, but do so only when it's convenient.

    I take great issue with what Mike Vick did and I passionately believe that every single animal deserves our humane treatment. I eat them, but I profoundly respect them and they are delicious. But I also understand that you are a product of your environment. Any adjustment one might have when fitting into a larger society with competing norms will invariably involve second chances. Mike Vick gets that chance from me.
    So thoughtful, full of insight, and well-written. I love dogs, and mourn what happens to them too often. Yet Grace and Redemption so very important. Thank you for adding depth to this thread.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by lloydroid View Post
    http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/i...-with-steelers

    Seriously? Seriously? I now have to question Tomlin's ability to judge character. He wanted Vick in Pgh. WTF? Nice. Tomlin wanted a dog-torturing and murdering felon on the Steelers' roster. Thank God the Rooneys were dead set against it. I really have to question Tomlin's character now. I've always been a big MT fan; but starting with last year's worst job of coaching in play off history, this season so far, and now finding out he wanted Vick on this team....I am starting to 2nd guess how much I support him.
    Outside of his initial press conference, don't really see anything in the guy that I do like. Heap another (small) log onto the fire.
    Last edited by virgilbosetti; 10-03-2012 at 09:31 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo View Post
    There was a point to posting that??????????????? Was it an attempt at humor???????????????
    ummm, there was a poster who stated that it was a wise move for tomlin to want to add, at the time, one of the most despised men in the entire u.s. to our team . i was simply stating that if that was indeed a smart move for the team, he would also support tomlin wanting to bring in a legendary coach like sandusky.
    understand?

  5. #45
    Hall of Famer fezziwig's Avatar
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    All I can see are these terrified dogs, dogs with tears in their eyes during all their abuse. If Vick and his piece of shiit culture stoped abusing the dogs within an instant the dogs would wag their tails and be loyal to him and the other scum. Wishing that these so called humans would stop punishing them, for things they did not understand or deserve. The same dogs that would love these pieces of shiit like Viick had he stopped his abuse. No, these dogs didn't get the mercy, the forgivness or kindeness. Screw Vick and I hope he burns in hell for what he did. Culture my a$$, I don't need to know right and wrong from my culture it, comes from within. It comes from being a Christian. Have mercy on all living creatures......his culture should have read that in the bible. He had no mercy on these dogs and I have no mercy for him.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flasteel View Post
    You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, so I'm trying to figure out how you can't see the impact of culture in this type of behavior. Culture is the lens by which all people view their moral, ethical, and value systems. There are very few behaviors which transcend all known cultures and can be agreed upon as good or bad everyone. If you think that the torture and killing of animals is among these sacred behaviors, then you are simply wrong.

    In Spain, bulls are not only tortured and killed for sport; the top matadors are revered like all-star football or baseball players in America. It's not just bullfighting over there either. They torture and kill animals all across the country and throughout the year for myriad different festivals.

    Look how animals are treated within the food industries - in this country and every other one for that matter. Some are treated in unspeakably inhumane fashions for the sake of mass producing food, while others are killed and tossed aside like garbage in the pursuit of the target prey. Look at how the Japanese fishermen treat the dolphins which get caught in their nets or what they do to sharks, just to lop off their fins. Look at zoos, lab experiments, canned hunting camps, or a hundred other examples of culturally condoned animal cruelty...they're everywhere.

    In some countries dogs are on the menu. In others, they are treated as nothing more than a lowly beast whose only purpose is to serve man. Drop you in the heart of China as a baby and I guarantee that you’ll grow up to be a dog-eating, finger-licking fool, who routinely asks for second helpings. You might look at a dog no different than you look at a rat (which was on your dinner plate the night before).

    You and I view this type of behavior as wrong because we were raised in cultures which value animal rights and largely view dogs as man's best friend. Other people aren't. Whether it's in China or an area in our own back yard, there are segments of people everywhere who are raised to think differently. I'm not even talking about individuals who are raised in specific households without morals or values, I'm talking about whole populations and societies which condone and normalize cruelty to animals. Dog fighting alone has been around for centuries and is still widely practiced across the world and across this country in black, white, and Hispanic cultures. Usually they are poor and ignorant communities, but they none-the-less shape the morals and values of those who are raised in them.

    In Mike Vick's case, he probably never started to live outside that culture until he got to Virginia Tech. I can easily see how someone born and raised in an environment where dog-fighting and killing is the norm, would carry that belief with him. I'm sure he's known it was an illegal act since he was a small child, but the law (and law enforcement) in his community is most likely not in step with most folks' value systems. Mike Tomlin is from the same town as Mike Vick. I'm sure he knows first-hand the exact environment Vick was raised in and how that shaped his views. It seems pretty natural to want to give him a chance, if he thought he could help this team.

    Now that Vick has been properly introduced to the concept of humanity and paid his debt, he should be given that second chance to show that he can operate within the acceptable laws and mores of our larger society. If you are the type of individual who is normally in the business of given others a second chance, then how can you not extend that same courtesy to someone who by all other measures (well...most other measures) is a decent human being?

    How could others take such umbrage with Tomlin for having that type of understanding and forgiveness...to the point where they would give up Steeler football? I don't even get that, but hey…I support anyone's right to feel that way.

    How many of you who hold that opinion, call yourself a Christian? Isn't forgiveness a core value of your professed belief system? I'm no Christian, but I find it funny when people wear that label, but do so only when it's convenient.

    I take great issue with what Mike Vick did and I passionately believe that every single animal deserves our humane treatment. I eat them, but I profoundly respect them and they are delicious. But I also understand that you are a product of your environment. Any adjustment one might have when fitting into a larger society with competing norms will invariably involve second chances. Mike Vick gets that chance from me.
    You bring up some great points, and many that I agree with (i.e. the vast differences in cultures across the world, and how things that repulse us are the norm in other countries, etc. and how many of those who call themselves Christians are horrible at applying the published teachings of Christ - I say "published" because some believe the Bible contains the words of other men, not Christ himself, but I digress.)

    I have not lived where Vick grew up, and even if I did, I am not a black man so I still might not be able to evaluate what his societal norm and culture were. And as I posted earlier in this thread, I find myself conflicted on Vick himself. On one hand I feel like "give the dude a chance, he seems like he's a different person, good for him for making such a dramatic change and making himself a new man, not only with distancing himself from dog fighting, but he has matured, found work ethic, appreciates what gifts he has in life, etc." I don't stare at the TV when he is on with any hatred in my heart. On the other hand, when I am watching someone might say, "I hate that dude; what he did to dogs in unforgivable." And, as a dog lover and owner, I can see that side too. Mostly, my mindset is "forgive the dude and move on, he seems like he's learned a great deal to become a better person" but once in a while, when I think about what he did, I get a little upset over it.

    Now, as far as blaming it all on the "culture" he grew up in, I can't give it a 100% based on that. How is it different than when the Chinese eat dog? Well, for one, it isn't illegal to eat dog there. It is illegal to dog fight here, whether or not the local police tried to enforce those laws or not. Now, do I think that one should follow every letter of the law? Well, no. Because there are still laws on the books in certain states that say oral sex is illegal, or, well, endless dumb laws that no one will enforce. So, no, I don't think every law deserves to be followed - at some point common sense comes into play. That being said, dog fighting laws don't seem to fall into the "weird laws no one follows" category. I can agree, to a degree, that upbringing, local culture comes into play. But only to a degree. To take the example to more of an extreme to make a point, what if in your local area, kidnapping and raping kids was acceptable in your local culture. Does that excuse you from any wrong doing if you entertain that life style? Where do you draw the line?

  7. #47
    Pro Bowler Steelhere10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fezziwig View Post
    All I can see are these terrified dogs, dogs with tears in their eyes during all their abuse. If Vick and his piece of shiit culture stoped abusing the dogs within an instant the dogs would wag their tails and be loyal to him and the other scum. Wishing that these so called humans would stop punishing them, for things they did not understand or deserve. The same dogs that would love these pieces of shiit like Viick had he stopped his abuse. No, these dogs didn't get the mercy, the forgivness or kindeness. Screw Vick and I hope he burns in hell for what he did. Culture my a$$, I don't need to know right and wrong from my culture it, comes from within. It comes from being a Christian. Have mercy on all living creatures......his culture should have read that in the bible. He had no mercy on these dogs and I have no mercy for him.
    Now this is what you call a hypocrite . Not to get in a religious war with you, But you say you are a Christian, but then you come back and say that you want a human to burn in Hell. But from my understanding God forgive us all for our sins and it is his judgement, not yours.... Do you kinda get the picture. I thought being a Christian that you would pray for people , not to wish Hell on them.

  8. #48
    Hall of Famer fezziwig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelhere10 View Post
    Now this is what you call a hypocrite . Not to get in a religious war with you, But you say you are a Christian, but then you come back and say that you want a human to burn in Hell. But from my understanding God forgive us all for our sins and it is his judgement, not yours.... Do you kinda get the picture. I thought being a Christian that you would pray for people , not to wish Hell on them.
    I'm not casting my pearls on swines. Vick and anyone that does this kind of stuff is a swine. I can forgive a lot of stuff but, not when you do something as horrible as this. I can't see just the fact of him getting caught means he's sorry for it. I don't know how anyone could really feel remorse if they are capable of doing what he did. And with that, I have no problems if he went to hell over it. I feel the same way about Hitler, Ted Bundy, BTK serial killer anyone that kills and torture for the fun of it or the hate in it that gives them their high. It doesn't matter to me if it is only dogs. Dogs animals still feel the pain, the hurt as humans do. Evil people should go to hell in my opinion and to me, Vick and anyone that does that is missing something in their soul and they are evil.

  9. #49
    Pro Bowler Steelhere10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fezziwig View Post
    I'm not casting my pearls on swines. Vick and anyone that does this kind of stuff is a swine. I can forgive a lot of stuff but, not when you do something as horrible as this. I can't see just the fact of him getting caught means he's sorry for it. I don't know how anyone could really feel remorse if they are capable of doing what he did. And with that, I have no problems if he went to hell over it. I feel the same way about Hitler, Ted Bundy, BTK serial killer anyone that kills and torture for the fun of it or the hate in it that gives them their high. It doesn't matter to me if it is only dogs. Dogs animals still feel the pain, the hurt as humans do. Evil people should go to hell in my opinion and to me, Vick and anyone that does that is missing something in their soul and they are evil.
    Let's just say that in Vick case or anyone else that did something horrible in your eyes, that after the fact that whatever was done and they truly asked the lord for forgiveness and meant it . Why in the world should they burn in Hell ? There is no one on this earth that hasn't sinned or committed some type of crime, Do we all deserve to burn in Hell ? All I'm saying is that those are really strong words that you are using and you might want to reconsider what you are saying. But to each as own.. Have a good night my friend.

  10. #50
    Hall of Famer Mister Pittsburgh's Avatar
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    It's one thing to use a dog as a tool to make money or even to use for entertainment in sport then when the dog is injured badly to put it down in a humane manner which is a bullet to the head instantly. Humans initially hunted animals for food and trade, but now hunt them, shoot them, wound them, trap them, stalk them, track them, kill them, gut them, skin them, and at this point in quite a few instances it's more for tradition or profit. People fight cocks and dogs and we even fight each other. Quite a few hunters own hunting dogs that sleep in the yard in a cage or tied to a doghouse and don't live in a house with their owners where they are treated as a tool more than a live in family friend.

    I don't necessarily take great issue with a the use of dogs as tools as long they are treated in a humane way.

    I do however take issue with the manner in the way he did not kill the dogs in the most humane way possible. He drowned or electrocuted the animals to death. That is what, to me, is wrong. Only he knows if he took enjoyment out of killing them in the less humane, more torturous manners of terminating their lives.

    Just to be clear with my personal stance on dogs I am a dog lover and my two dogs are like my mute fur covered kids.
    Last edited by Mister Pittsburgh; 10-03-2012 at 11:10 PM.

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