Do you hear that?Originally Posted by stopplayn
That is the sound of goalposts moving...
Do you hear that?
That is the sound of goalposts moving...
good thing for asante samuel, i guess
would have him 3rd
ya know he was on a defense that allowed almost 400 yards, right?
if ben put up 17 points in a Sb against a very average defense, you would say he didnt do enough
just like you say about the arizona game. "he wouldnt have needed that last drive if the offense did something earlier in the 4th quarter"
and you are wrong.
i remember that play from years back. 5 OL heath and the RB. eagles drop in a zone blitz and only send 4 and get on ben immediately
edit..2 mins in clear as day. stop making chit up
Last edited by NJ-STEELER; 10-05-2012 at 05:54 PM.
yeah, i remember with a 3 man line the browns DE whipping around willie 2 times for a sack. one in our final drive
I don't have the NFL Network nor did I then so either I didn't see the game at all or I saw it on one of those crappy live feeds that stutters and freezes half of the time.
Yes, the line was bad. I'm assuming you've been a Steelers fan for awhile so I would think you'd know that. The line has been getting better the past couple of years but there for awhile our line was one of the worst lines in the entire NFL. The year that we're talking about? Yes, the line was most definitely bad if not downright horrible. Who was our center? Sean Mahan? Chukky Okobi? Give me a break. Take a stance. Was our O-line good? Was it so-so? Was it friggin terrible? I'm going to go with friggin terrible.The line was bad?
Moment* I would have thought you'd have the spelling down after my last post.Then how come the line was great the MOMMENT Leftwich came in (Skins, Browns (2), Eagles) Wasnt it the SAME LINE?
I sincerely doubt the line was "great" after Leftwich came in. I don't even think that's what you're trying to say (even though that's what you typed). I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you're not trying to say that the line was "great" when Leftwich came in, but that your opinion is that Leftwich was able to better hide the faults of the line by getting the ball out quicker. That seems to make sense to me. So...what's your point? Did I miss the part where I said that Leftwich gets sacked as much as or more than Ben? strawman.jpeg
As you will see in my next post, at least in the 2009 Browns game you've been talking about I did not see this happen at all.In the Eagles game if the majority of the sacks were on the line then why did that SAME LINE block perfectly for Leftwich? I'll tell you why. Because Leftwich, Batch and Dixon STAY IN THE POCKET. Ben hurts himself by PREMATURELY leaving the pocket.
Did you mean to say "but the Olinman [sic] can't see where Ben is at"? It would help if you'd look over your posts before you submit them because if you didn't mean "can't" then I have no idea what you're talking about here. As to your point (or what I think is your point) at least in the specific game that I will discuss in my next post I did not see this as the case. Please present specific examples from specific games to back up your argument. Am I saying that Ben *never* leaves the pocket too early? Not at all. But to say that's the main reason for him taking sacks, especially during the 2008 and 2009 seasons that you seem to like bringing up so much is just unwarranted.The defender sees this and he moves with Ben but the Olinman can see where Ben is at. Makes it hard to block for. When a qb stays in the pocket the the lineman knows where he is at and its a joy to block for him (See Brady, Brees, Mannings etc) If Ben would STAY IN THE POCKET, he wouldnt have as many sacks.
Even in the 2009 Browns game I watched Ben make check downs and dump the ball off numerous times. I also watched him stay in the pocket the majority of the time. However, I am willing to concede that a lot of other quarterbacks "get the ball out faster" than Ben. The flip side of the coin is that a lot of Ben's best plays are made outside of the pocket or on the run, and these are things that Batch, Leftwich, and Dixon are not capable of doing. Would I exchange having Ben and his crazy extending-the-play abilities as well as the propensity to get sacked more for any other quarterback because they stay in the pocket more and perhaps get the ball out quicker? NOPE. Why? Because we would have two less superbowls.What evidence do I have that Leftwich is smarter? When he is in he reads the defense AT THE LINE. He audibles, he hot routes and his sight adjustments are expert. I cited the Eagles game. I will also cite the Skins game as well. Ben was ineffective and getting sacked left and right. He got hurt and Lefty started the 3rd quarter. The sacks stopped, the line was great (Because he stays IN THE POCKET). Lefty made a sight adjustment at the line on the goalline and hit Santonio for a TD. Lefty recognized that the cb was playing off of tone, made a hand signal (hot route) to Tone. Tone ran a slant and the TD was there. You watch Lefty at the line and then you watch Ben. There are glaring differences. Not saying Lefty is better, JUST SMARTER. He also did the same sight adjustments vs the Browns (2nd game) when Ben was carted off to the ambulance (Again, sacks galore, Enter Leftwich and they stopped).
Now lets see. Browns, Skins, and Eagles games we have sacks galore. Take Ben out and they stop. Also, Dixon played for an injured Ben and passed TWENTY SIX times and wasnt sacked once VS THE RAVENS. Ben comes back for the 2nd Raven game and was sacked 4 times. We lost by three with Dixon and won by three with Ben. Yes Ben is better than Dixon (he sucks) but the sack problem only exists when Ben is playing. Batch started vs the Falcons and the Ravens and the sack problem was not a factor. Thats what evidence I have. They all get the ball out faster than Ben does but not better.
You dont remember the stupid saftey? I posted the link to the game. Check it out. Bonehead rookie mistake. GET RID OF THE BALL BEN!!!
As I said previously, yes. The. line. was. bad. I was wrong about our center. Instead of Okobi or Mahan, it was Hartwig. Not a big difference.The line was bad?
Here are the stats for the 2009 Offensive Line:
[URL]http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=0011&role=TM &offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensi veStatisticCategory=null&season=2009&seasonType=RE G&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go[/URL]
As you can see, we ranked 16th in the AFC (last place) and 31st out of 32 in the entire NFL.
More Steelers 2009 O-Line stats:
[URL]http://www.steelersdepot.com/2010/02/steelers-2009-offensive-line-stats/[/URL]
Can we move on?
__________________________________________________ ___________________________
So, anyways, I got a hold of that 2009 Steelers/Browns game (12-10-2009) and watched it. Here's my take on the 8 sacks in that game:
2009 Steelers vs Browns 12-10 recap:
[URL]http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=291210005[/URL]
1st sack: 10:57 in the 1st quarter, we have 3rd and 1 on our 24 yard line, Ben is in shotgun. Hartwig gets beat like a drum by Corey Williams, Moore (or Mendy) doesn't even slow him down a bit, everyone is covered downfield, and Ben takes a sack. He didn't try to get out of the pocket at all. He didn't have the time.
2nd sack: 5:39 left in the 1st quarter, we have another 3rd down, this time at our 9 yard line, Poteat comes in unblocked and sacks Ben before he can do anything. The protection was screwed up on this play, as they let the defender come in untouched. Whoever called the protection is to blame, whether it was Arians or Ben. Again, Ben didn't "leave the pocket early" or try to extend the play. He was sacked pretty much immediately after the snap.
3rd sack: 1st play of the 2nd quarter. We're at their 41. It's another 3rd down and 7 and we go shotgun again. Marcus Bernard comes in unblocked and gets Ben immediately. There is no time for him to roll out of the pocket or do anything. Looking at the play, Bernard had no one line up across from him at the line and it looks to me that Colon just blew his assignment. Instead of blocking Bernard (on his right) he gives help to the left where it doesn't seem needed. Maybe Heath was supposed to stay in and block? Either way Bernard is given a free shot and he takes down Ben immediately.
Here's where they are pre-snap:
sack3-1.jpg
Notice no one lined up across the line from Bernard. Colon is to the left. Heath is on the right but farther away.
Here's where everyone goes:
Sack3-2.jpg
Colon turns left and Heath goes out. The result is an immediate sack.
4th sack: 5:32 left in the 2nd quarter, we're at our 40 with a 2nd and 12. From what I can tell it seems like a combination of two things: Instead of hitting Heath when he can, Ben looks like he's staring Hines down (who doesn't get his head turned around) AND Hartwig lets Corey Williams get around him by choosing to help Colon instead. I guess you could say this one is also on Essex as he initially gets a push on Williams and then releases to block someone else on the left which allows Williams to come in on Ben.
Here's the line pre-snap:
Sack4-1.jpg
Here I've highlighted both Hartwig and Corey Williams:
Sack4-2.jpg
Here you can see Essex initially blocking Williams and Hartwig looking for someone to block. On the right side you can see both Ward (I think it's Ward) and Heath going out.
Here's right before the sack:
Sack4-3.jpg
Looks to me like Ben is staring at Hines' back, who doesn't get his head around. However, Heath is in a perfect position to make a catch and in my opinion Ben should hit him. But, from Ben's perspective it looks like the line has the D blocked so my assumption is that he was trying to make a bigger play. You can also see where Essex turned to the left to block someone and Hartwig turns right to help Colon, which frees up the lane for Williams to come in on Ben. I see this sack on both the O-Line and Ben, as Ben had a chance to get the ball to Heath, but the line plays like a comedy of errors. "Which way did he go, George? Which way did he go?"
5th sack: The very next play we have a 3rd and 19 from our 33. Shotgun. This one is particularly sad. The Browns only rush 3 and drop everyone else into coverage. What happens here is that Bernard puts a move on Colon and blows right by him. Ben is sacked...again immediately. This is most definitely not on Ben. Colon gets abused and hits the ground in frustration at his own ineptitude.
6th sack: 6:09 left in the 3rd quarter. We're at our 31. 3rd and 7, in the shotgun...(anything starting to sound familiar? 3rd down...shotgun...sack). Browns lay off but beat us with four. Bowens puts a stutter step on Kemo and then gets around him without being touched. Goes straight in on Ben. Both Heath and Moore stayed in on either side of Ben initially and then when it looked like the line was holding they took off. It was then that Bowens came in and got Ben. I don't see how this one was on Ben either. If our line can't hold against a four man rush when we leave both Heath and Moore in to help, then we're screwed. The commentators keep talking about how good the Browns' coverage is and that Ben has nowhere to throw the ball. From what I see, it looks like they're getting away with a lot of contact past 5 yards. Oh well. Maybe Ben could have thrown it away but I think Heath and Moore need to get their heads around faster.
7th sack: :58 left in the 3rd quarter. 2nd and 5, we're in the shotgun at the Browns' 23 yard line. Browns go man under/2 deep (according to the commentators lol) and have all of our receivers covered. Ben tucks the ball, tries to run, and gets dropped a yard shy of the line of scrimmage. Looks like the line had the Browns blocked initially but are out of position because Ben tries to run. Earlier Ben faced this coverage and was able to run for 11 and the 1st down. Not so this time. Not sure who to really blame for this one. The Browns have good coverage, our line seems to pick them up alright, Ben has nowhere to throw the ball...so he tries to run but gets tackled. Seems like less a sack than a run that results in a tackle for a loss. Just happens to be Ben with the ball.
8th sack: Easier to show this one then try to talk about it:
[URL]http://youtu.be/zJpvlw0RElo[/URL]
Looks like Ben might have been able to get it to Heath short, but other than that I don't really have anything to say about this one.
So, in summation, I did not see Ben "leaving the pocket early" on any of those sacks. I did, however, see a couple of times when Ben might have been able to get the ball to Heath for a short pass or possibly throw it away. The main thing that I saw was our O-Line sucking and sucking badly.
Anyhow, I'd appreciate it if you kept your comments confined to this game alone for the time being instead of moving the goal posts to a different game. This was the specific game that I saw being discussed so this is the one I took a look at.
Whether anyone else gets anything out of it doesn't matter to me because I enjoyed doing it.
A couple of other things I noticed while watching the game:
-Brady Quinn hahahahahaha
-Nice to see Mendy on the field.
-I wish Sepulveda could have stayed healthy. While not what you necessarily need in a punter, that guy could tackle (used to be an LB etc). He took Cribbs DOWN and prevented a TD on a return in the 1st.
-Troy on the sidelines. Bah.
-Watching Silverback getting held every friggin down is pissing me off even now.
-While I like our WRs now, Ward/Holmes/Wallace/Heath is one hell of a receiving corps.
-1 quarter in and Ben has the longest run for the Steelers at 11(?) yards.
-Noticed some uncharacteristic drops by our receivers. Hines drops a well thrown quick pass that could've turned into a big gain towards the end of the 1st half. When we have 1st and goal at the end of the 1st half Heath drops a pass that hits him in the chest that would've been a TD. We settle for a FG instead (because there's only 2 seconds left on the clock). Huge drop by a wide open Mendenhall on 3rd down in the 4th quarter. It would have put us in field goal range but instead we had to punt. Wonder if the cold has something to do with it.
-Ben to Holmes was money.
Last edited by eniparadoxgma; 10-05-2012 at 11:04 PM.
There's apparently a five attachment limit so here's the pic I was going to use to show the AWESOME PASS RUSH of the Browns which resulted in the fifth sack in that 2009 Browns game:
Sack5-pathetic.jpg
Pathetic.
Nice brake down Eni thank for taking the time
Molon labe
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. George Orwell
?We're not going to apologize for winning.?
Mike Tomlin
American metal pimped by asiansteel
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you 1. Jesus Christ, 2.The American G.I., One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks