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Thread: Shaping up to be the Worst Steelers Defense...

  1. #31
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    A few years back, Chadman favoured the mythical switch to the 4-3 Defense. Then Tomlin & co invested heavily in what was meant to be an influx of 3-4 talent. Thing is, these 3-4 guys they brought in have not become the 'new age' 3-4 players. Chadman said during the gameday chat that the Steelers defense is now "straight ahead" fast, but "laterally slow". This is a problem when, as chiken pointed out, the opposition are forcing guys like Woodley & Harrison into coverage, exploiting their 'laterally slow' tendancies. Even our DB's are 'laterally slow'. Including Troy- who is very 'straight ahead' fast. It might be time to switch to the 4-3. It would mean that the Steelers potentially have 1 DT too many between Hood, Heyward, McLendon & Taamu (for next season- won't happen this season) & not enough genuine DE's of high quality (Woodley, Worilds, Keisel, Carter). The switch would benefit LaMarr Woodley most- his straight ahead speed is great, his strength & pass rush, great. His pass coverage skills... average at best. If he was a 4-3 DE with the task of just getting upfield all day, he would most likely excel. Same goes for Worilds, who doesn't seem able to switch into coverage with any confidence.

    The LB's could also get a boost because a 4-3 would likely suit 2 of it's more promising players more than the 3-4- Timmons (who would move to OLB in a 4-3, and Sean Spence who excelled at college at ILB, but may not be big enough in a 3-4). Stevenson Sylvester is fast enough to get a look at the other OLB spot, but the Steelers would likely need to add another OLB to the roster- or use Brandon Johnson there.

    At DB, the Steelers need to move away from the 'big CB' mantra they seem to adore & start bringing in some agile, quicker guys. Curtis Brown still seems, to Chadman, to be the best suited CB to play man coverage. He's 'laterally quick'. Cortez Allen looks 'straight ahead fast' & might be suited to a FS role more than CB. Keenan Lewis does not inspire Chadman much. Clark & Polamalu are getting close to retirement age now, and moves MUST be made to secure young talent to learn from them while there is still time. Ike could hold a CB spot in a 4-3 as easily as he does in a 3-4, but he's getting shown up when the pressure from the OLB's isn't there.

    To move to a 4-3 will take time to get it 'right'. But even 'half right' for a year or two, so long as it's moving more towards 'right' than 'wrong', is better than the current 3-4 system we use, which has been progressively getting shown up for a few years now. The Steelers 3-4 is moving more towards 'wrong' than 'right', and with the current roster, doesn't look to be making any significant moves to rectify that.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlifter View Post
    Harrison and Troy will help, but they are NOT the answer they once were. I seriously doubt Harrison will ever again be the impact player he was. The heart is still strong, but the injuries are nagging and won't go away.

    There is no 'one thing' wrong with the defense. age is a factor. scheme is a factor. performance from the backups is a HUGE factor. Our captain jumping offsides and giving them a TD is a factor. We used to outscheme AND outphysical our opponents. now we do neither. I don't care about rankings or points allowed. the simple truth is the defense has been on the decline for 3 years. they have tried to transition it with new players (hood, timmons, etc) but those players have yet to step up. That's why keisel and hampton are still starting. zero pressure on carson today. first two games the raiders were dead last in 3rd down conversion. against the steelers defense they never punted. we were all making excuses in week one. hey, it's peyton manning. nope, it was us. thank god sanchez sucks or the season would already be over. we got two weeks to figure something out and get healthy. get to 2-2 and maybe we turn it around. go to 1-3 and yikes.

    hello high draft pick. although all things considered - we could use one.
    Well, they are (the answer) and they aren't. They aren't the players they were... but still, that is the only shot our D has at this point. Because it's clear that without them, we will be at the mercy of ANY team. With one (the other one being out), we also have proven to be very vulnerable. With both, we have a chance. We may not be "Steeler Defense" tough, but I think we can hold the fort enough to be competitive with the better teams.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoe View Post
    Well, they are (the answer) and they aren't. They aren't the players they were... but still, that is the only shot our D has at this point. Because it's clear that without them, we will be at the mercy of ANY team. With one (the other one being out), we also have proven to be very vulnerable. With both, we have a chance. We may not be "Steeler Defense" tough, but I think we can hold the fort enough to be competitive with the better teams.
    my point is that, certainly we need them back and we'll be a better defense with them - but our problems are deep and go way beyond missing harrison and troy. better? yes. back to a lights out feared defense? no way.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiken View Post
    Why are we making it seem like we have never loss games with Both Troy and James Playing? I mean I love those guys and I do think they will help but we are not 2 people away from being a championship Defense.

    The Gig is up on our defensive philosophy. Teams are scheming James & Lamar into pass coverage's. Elite Qbs are out guessing Troy. We are No longer Stout up the middle and We are to afraid to play Man coverage for longer than 1 game at a time.

    We are no longer feared, We use to dictate things but its us who are being Dictated. I am sure the new Rules have a ton to do with this but whatever.. We need to adjust. We cant expect for our offense to score touchdowns every time they touch the ball. Scoring Over 30 points should be enough to get us a win against anybody.

    OF all the games played This season there only 4 other teams that scored at least 31 points and lost. (Saints, Skins, Bucs and Lions)
    You're right, "the gig is up!" Unfortunately everyone wanted to ignore it because they were too busy with idol worship. This is not a surprise. it was clear this is where we were heading but no one wanted to see it because they were too busy blaming Arians for all the worlds faults. We needed two new coordinators after last season. Rooney and Tomlin failed on that one.

    Unfortunatelty the inability of the defense to change has left us where we now have to make reactive changes not proactive ones to stay ahead of the rest of the league.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Starlifter View Post
    my point is that, certainly we need them back and we'll be a better defense with them - but our problems are deep and go way beyond missing harrison and troy. better? yes. back to a lights out feared defense? no way.

    Better yes, Competitive we can only hope.

    Our Defense hasnt been a Factor for more than a few years.. Last years #1 ranking was a total slap in the face to what a Good defense is suppose to be.


    We dont know what to expect anymore - even with Troy and James. No one who has been following the Steelers for as long as Most of us have can honestly say any different.. not at this point.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by stopplayn View Post
    Really? How about Woodley? Timmons? (who can play both olb and mlb). McClendon? Ziggy?Heyward?

    Most of you dont understand the scheme. You guys compare our players to others. You cant compare Aaron Smith to Michael Strahan. One is a 3-4 end and the other is a 4-3 one. Asked to do two different things. Our corners, safties etc wont have as many ints as others defenders due to our scheme. Lebeaus scheme is designed to keep the ball in front of you (Not to get turnovers).

    So when you guys dont see our players making plays like other defenders its not because they arent good but its our scheme. Scheme is designed to have two stars (OLBS) and thats it. Troy Polamalu and Rod Woodson, Carnell Lake are exceptions to Dick's rule.
    Do you really believe that Timmons, McClendon, Ziggy and Heyward have been developed into top tier NFL talent? Heck, not even top tier talent, have they been developed into above average NFL talent? Woodley, maybe he's top tier, but right now the Steelers aren't putting any players in the Pro-Bowl on the defensive side of the ball. Right now Timmons and Woodley appear to be the beneficiaries of having a young Hampton, a young Smith and Brett Kiesel in front of them to allow them to make plays.

    In the fourth quarter the Raiders had three drives and four 3rd and 9 or 10 opportunities and the defense didn't make a play on any of those and all three drives ended up TD and the final one was the game winning FG. If they get off on one of those, the game could be different, since Ben and the offense were having a good game until the their final drive when they didn't get it done. The defense is below the line right now and Troy and James aren't making a difference big enough to propel the Steelers into the top tier teams. They are going to need other players to start making plays starting in two weeks.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ryan Shazier - ILB/OLB
    2.46) Stephon Tuitt - DE
    3.97) Dri Archer - RB
    4.118 ) Martavis Bryant - WR
    5.157) Shaquille Richardson - CB
    6.173) Wesley Johnson - OT
    6.192) Jordan Zumwalt - ILB
    7.215) Daniel McCullers - DT
    7.230) Rob Blanchflower - TE

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  7. #37
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    Couple of points:

    1. The Offense fumbled 4 times and lost 2.

    2. Ryan Clark got a turnover to start the game which lead to an easy 7.

    3. Officiating turned a Oakland 4th and 2 into a 1st and goal inside the 5. That's another 4 points for Oakland.

    4. ST gave up yards. Including a horrible punt. And holds on a return for a TD that cost us some points.

    5. The O didn't score TDs in the 4th quarter.

    We can blame the defense, but who didn't see this coming? The problem on D for years has been the inability to generate pressure on opposing QBs.

    But yesterday's loss isn't all on our D. They have their issues. But we still would have won this game if the O and ST played better.

    We have a long time to work this out. No one hands out Lombardi's yet.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chadman View Post
    A few years back, Chadman favoured the mythical switch to the 4-3 Defense. Then Tomlin & co invested heavily in what was meant to be an influx of 3-4 talent. Thing is, these 3-4 guys they brought in have not become the 'new age' 3-4 players. Chadman said during the gameday chat that the Steelers defense is now "straight ahead" fast, but "laterally slow". This is a problem when, as chiken pointed out, the opposition are forcing guys like Woodley & Harrison into coverage, exploiting their 'laterally slow' tendancies. Even our DB's are 'laterally slow'. Including Troy- who is very 'straight ahead' fast. It might be time to switch to the 4-3. It would mean that the Steelers potentially have 1 DT too many between Hood, Heyward, McLendon & Taamu (for next season- won't happen this season) & not enough genuine DE's of high quality (Woodley, Worilds, Keisel, Carter). The switch would benefit LaMarr Woodley most- his straight ahead speed is great, his strength & pass rush, great. His pass coverage skills... average at best. If he was a 4-3 DE with the task of just getting upfield all day, he would most likely excel. Same goes for Worilds, who doesn't seem able to switch into coverage with any confidence.

    The LB's could also get a boost because a 4-3 would likely suit 2 of it's more promising players more than the 3-4- Timmons (who would move to OLB in a 4-3, and Sean Spence who excelled at college at ILB, but may not be big enough in a 3-4). Stevenson Sylvester is fast enough to get a look at the other OLB spot, but the Steelers would likely need to add another OLB to the roster- or use Brandon Johnson there.

    At DB, the Steelers need to move away from the 'big CB' mantra they seem to adore & start bringing in some agile, quicker guys. Curtis Brown still seems, to Chadman, to be the best suited CB to play man coverage. He's 'laterally quick'. Cortez Allen looks 'straight ahead fast' & might be suited to a FS role more than CB. Keenan Lewis does not inspire Chadman much. Clark & Polamalu are getting close to retirement age now, and moves MUST be made to secure young talent to learn from them while there is still time. Ike could hold a CB spot in a 4-3 as easily as he does in a 3-4, but he's getting shown up when the pressure from the OLB's isn't there.

    To move to a 4-3 will take time to get it 'right'. But even 'half right' for a year or two, so long as it's moving more towards 'right' than 'wrong', is better than the current 3-4 system we use, which has been progressively getting shown up for a few years now. The Steelers 3-4 is moving more towards 'wrong' than 'right', and with the current roster, doesn't look to be making any significant moves to rectify that.
    This may all be true, however, right now they are a 34 defense and the last few drafts in which the Steelers were hoping to restock defensive talent, they haven't. The players all started out looking like they were hits in the first round, but I think what we're seeing is that these players saw early success because of the veterans on the team, Smith, Hampton (a yonger Hampton) and Kiesel, throw in Farrior and a healthy Troy and James and you have the makings of a great defense.

    Farrior and Smith are gone, Hamption is showing age, James and Troy can't stay healthy and Kiesel is good, but he isn't elite. The Steelers were hoping for the new players to step in after learning and being in the NFL for a few years, it appears that it hasn't happened.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ryan Shazier - ILB/OLB
    2.46) Stephon Tuitt - DE
    3.97) Dri Archer - RB
    4.118 ) Martavis Bryant - WR
    5.157) Shaquille Richardson - CB
    6.173) Wesley Johnson - OT
    6.192) Jordan Zumwalt - ILB
    7.215) Daniel McCullers - DT
    7.230) Rob Blanchflower - TE

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by papillon View Post
    This may all be true, however, right now they are a 34 defense and the last few drafts in which the Steelers were hoping to restock defensive talent, they haven't. The players all started out looking like they were hits in the first round, but I think what we're seeing is that these players saw early success because of the veterans on the team, Smith, Hampton (a yonger Hampton) and Kiesel, throw in Farrior and a healthy Troy and James and you have the makings of a great defense.

    Farrior and Smith are gone, Hamption is showing age, James and Troy can't stay healthy and Kiesel is good, but he isn't elite. The Steelers were hoping for the new players to step in after learning and being in the NFL for a few years, it appears that it hasn't happened.

    Pappy
    Pappy--I don't think that a conversion to a 4-3 would be as didfficult as you think. Remember, almost all our players grew up playing a 4-3 especially the DL. Players we would draft going forward would not have to go through the 2 year conversion process from college DT to DE and from college DE to OLB. Not much would change for the defensive secondary.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by flippy View Post
    Couple of points:

    1. The Offense fumbled 4 times and lost 2.

    2. Ryan Clark got a turnover to start the game which lead to an easy 7.

    3. Officiating turned a Oakland 4th and 2 into a 1st and goal inside the 5. That's another 4 points for Oakland.

    4. ST gave up yards. Including a horrible punt. And holds on a return for a TD that cost us some points.

    5. The O didn't score TDs in the 4th quarter.

    We can blame the defense, but who didn't see this coming? The problem on D for years has been the inability to generate pressure on opposing QBs.

    But yesterday's loss isn't all on our D. They have their issues. But we still would have won this game if the O and ST played better.

    We have a long time to work this out. No one hands out Lombardi's yet.
    Very accurate and reasonable post but there is a shortage on reason around here

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