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Thread: Raising the Debt Ceiling

  1. #11
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    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by flippy
    Quote Originally Posted by snarky
    OK, so name me one politician who doesn't support spending of some sort?

    And how would you just cut social security. People have paid into it for years and those who are now collecting have it slotted into their budgets. So you would just cut it full stop? The real estate market would collapse pretty quickly if that happened.

    Obama actually put long term social security reform on the budget - I honestly don't know what happened from there because I lost interest what was essentially a manufactured crisis. This same congress passed the budget that pushed the budget over the previous limit, so why they had to go back later and approve the raising the debt ceiling when they had already passed the budget is beyond me. And why there was so much drama about actually authorizing the increase is also a mystery -- unless it was political theater.

    EDIT: Actually, I misspoke. It was the last Congress that passed this budget. But either way, I have a philosophical objection to the notion of the debt limit ceiling because the budget that the duly elected US Congress agreed to for the current fiscal year was passed and signed into law. If the current congress wanted to undo the budget or bring it within some limit, they should have began cutting/scaling back expenditure one-by-one.
    I looked up some Social Security #s:

    From 1951 to 2009 the absolute maximum amount that anyone put into SS is $124,901.

    The max payout for 2011 is $2366/month.

    So if someone gets SS for 20 years, that's $567k.

    $567/$124 = 4.57x which is a phenomenal return.

    We could afford to scale a lot of that back and wind down SS and let people take care of themselves and their families.

    And if real estate is a problem, burn down the foreclosed houses and make it illegal to build any new houses.
    Actually it's not that great a return when you consider the pay-in was over the course of about 40 years and the 567K was collected over the course of 20 years. But either way, there's definitely fat to trim (and the retirement age should be raised - by two months/year until it hits 70, IMO).

    And who is going to reimburse banks for the value of properties that go into foreclosure? Or do you want to destroy the banking industry to inflate housing prices?
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  2. #12
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    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by snarky

    Actually it's not that great a return when you consider the pay-in was over the course of about 40 years and the 567K was collected over the course of 20 years. But either way, there's definitely fat to trim (and the retirement age should be raised - by two months/year until it hits 70, IMO).

    And who is going to reimburse banks for the value of properties that go into foreclosure? Or do you want to destroy the banking industry to inflate housing prices?
    It's definitely a screwed up system. And I get by no means is it a great return, but if you compare it to what the average person saves on their own and gets as a return as an individual, it's a phenomenal return for the middle/lower class who are dependent on the SS checks. And since we're in dire straights in terms of debt, it seems reasonable to cut SS. Sorry old people, times are tough - and in fairness you're the ones who voted for the knuckleheads running our country so you probably deserve to feel the pain. (I'm intentionally being over the top of course )

    I'd be ok if they raised the retirement age to 100 for what it's worth. If you're healthy and can keep working, why stop at any age? 15% or so of Social Security goes to disability now. What if we got creative and turned SS into a full fledged disability plan where you get it only as a last resort if you need it because you can't work any more. I was reading an article in a health magazine recently saying that you really don't age past 50 if you take care of yourself (assuming nothing catastrophic happens of course). Essentially, we can physically maintain the same quality of life until death now until some major illness strikes. Thanks to science, do we really need SS any more? I mean if it turns into a disability insurance program, that's better suited to private industry and we can get the fed gov't out of this game completely.

    Re: the banks, I'd like someone to guarantee my bets in vegas in case I lose. Unfortunately I haven't been able to force anyone to do that like our financial system does. We probably should have burned down the banks along with the foreclosures and set up a new banking system. The loans they made were equivalent to the US gov't betting $10T on 23 on the roulette table. Just unbelievable the risks the banks could get away with given they are too intertwined in the market to be allowed to fail. The depth of how screwed up this is is mind boggling.

  3. #13

    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    Don't see why everyone BUT the very rich should be expected to clean up this mess. That's not America in my book.


    We got our "6-PACK" - time to work on a CASE!

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  4. #14
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    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    "The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan



  5. #15

    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    Duplicate, sorry!


    We got our "6-PACK" - time to work on a CASE!

    HERE WE GO STEELERS, HERE WE GO!

  6. #16

    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Jooser
    "The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan


    Great quote!

    Except for of course for things like FEMA people helping Joplin, MO rebuild after getting flattened by that F5 tornado, National Guard helping out with the flooding throughout the country this spring, the Veterans Administration helping repay our veterans for their service with low cost decent health care, our Armed Forces keeping us safe, National Institutes of Health working on finding vaccines and medicines to keep us healthy, Food and Drug Administration testing new drugs and inspecting food to keep us safe, cops and firemen putting their lives on the line for us, and probably a hundred pages of other things.

    But other than things like that, let's face it, the government is EVIL!!


    We got our "6-PACK" - time to work on a CASE!

    HERE WE GO STEELERS, HERE WE GO!

  7. #17
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    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntonioSteelerFan
    Quote Originally Posted by Jooser
    "The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan


    Great quote!

    Except for of course for things like FEMA people helping Joplin, MO rebuild after getting flattened by that F5 tornado, National Guard helping out with the flooding throughout the country this spring, the Veterans Administration helping repay our veterans for their service with low cost decent health care, our Armed Forces keeping us safe, National Institutes of Health working on finding vaccines and medicines to keep us healthy, Food and Drug Administration testing new drugs and inspecting food to keep us safe, cops and firemen putting their lives on the line for us, and probably a hundred pages of other things.

    But other than things like that, let's face it, the government is EVIL!!

    I don't think anyone is saying the government is evil. I mean take a look at what the government actually is. It is not a living being, it is made up of many people from all different races and backgrounds. Many of these people have good intentions and are most of the time in no position of actually power of authority. Most politicians are just representatives for companies. They don't actually vote with there heart and minds but because they are told to do so. Ron Paul is unlike many politicians in the fact that he has always voted with the constitution and has had a consistent voting record for over 25 years.

    The grassroots supporters (you and I) are having a "Money Bomb" today for Ron's birthday. Its a 24 hour thing .... Currently we have raised $977,490.54 and we are only a few hours over half way.

    The message of liberty is gaining traction amongst the people. You won't see the rEVOLution televised. You have to do your own research and take your own time to read. No more relying on the mainstream to give us info.

  8. #18

    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by AzStillers1989
    I don't think anyone is saying the government is evil.
    I was just responding in kind (and a little tongue-in-cheek) to the use of the word "terrifying" to describe "the government" in the original post.



    But in terms of what you wrote, I agree with lots of it. Especially,
    Quote Originally Posted by AzStillers1989
    " ... Most politicians are just representatives for companies. They don't actually vote with there heart and minds but because they are told to do so ..."
    I agree 100% - they are not really OUR representatives, unless we happen to be one of the very few who are able to "tell" them what to do. And the only inducement to get these people to "do" things is to help them get re-elected.

    My theory on how to make our government better, and our lives too (it's been pointed out in this thread and others that this debt-ceiling fight messed things up massively in this country, and really was completely avoidable except for the "efforts" of those in D.C.), is to completely sever the link between needing money and getting re-elected. If these guys (and gals) didn't have to slobber-knock every waking moment to raise money for the next election, maybe they'd vote on the merits of issues.

    I know that approach raises other potential problems, but you know I really can't imagine they would lead to anything even close to as bad as what we have now.


    We got our "6-PACK" - time to work on a CASE!

    HERE WE GO STEELERS, HERE WE GO!

  9. #19

    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntonioSteelerFan
    Except for of course for things like FEMA people helping Joplin, MO rebuild after getting flattened by that F5 tornado, National Guard helping out with the flooding throughout the country this spring, the Veterans Administration helping repay our veterans for their service with low cost decent health care, our Armed Forces keeping us safe, National Institutes of Health working on finding vaccines and medicines to keep us healthy, Food and Drug Administration testing new drugs and inspecting food to keep us safe, cops and firemen putting their lives on the line for us, and probably a hundred pages of other things.

    But other than things like that, let's face it, the government is EVIL!!
    I don't think many people - even the so-called Tea Party types - want to revert back to the 1800s. The issue is more of sustainability and our government just isn't on a sustainable path (and hasn't been for some time). We can't tax our way out of this, although realistically we will have to increase tax revenues also.

    I've got to say many of the examples you used above are good examples of "good govt" in terms of the mission of these agencies, but in practice it's not always the case. FEMA...good work, but we've seen how unprepared and slow they were during Katrina. Veterans Administration? Again, can't agree more with their mission but I've been fighting them on behalf of my father for quite some time now. It's disgraceful the way he's been treated and he is hardly alone.

    One great reform I'd like to see that is non-partisan is streamlining these bureaucracies. They are too big, unaccountable and slow. At the very least, can't we institute a simple rule of only hiring 1 new govt employee for every 3 retirees? Nobody has to lose their job, we'll just consolidate positions and try to shrink the bureaucracy through natural attrition.

    I bet that would save billions of dollars in no time and maybe even make our agencies perform better.

    Just a thought.

  10. #20
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    Re: Raising the Debt Ceiling

    I've got ideas that could go on for days on this topic.

    What if all public officials got $0 salary? Turn them into volunteers. That way you'd get people to run for office that weren't in it for financial gain. They'd likely be better people that would be more responsible and not allow us into the mess we're in.

    How bout you cancel a vote for every $1 a politican spends on a political campaign and use that money for something else?

    How bout legalizing all drugs? You could shut down most prisons. How about eliminating most of the goofy laws on the books so police have less work and you need less police officers.

    Cut funding for education. Make parents either home school or pay their own way for their kids to go to private school. If you're gonna have kids, be responsible for them. Don't expect society to take care of your kids. It's a pretty lame concept if you think about it.

    Tax consumption only. Don't tax investment. Eliminate the IRS. Simplify the system. No laws. No breaks. Just a simple flat tax on consumption.

    Free trade with every other country on the planet.

    Immediately fire 50% of gov't employees/contractors.

    Shut down the USPO.

    Cut off funding to all public universities. If people want to go to college, let them pay for it. Cut the subsidies.

    Bottom line, I'm pretty ok with cutting everything. People running crap just aren't creative and they worry too much about getting elected.

    Maybe one day when I retire I'll run for office on the I'm gonna cut everything ticket.

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