I feel bad for Art Jr.

[stlrz d]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

D, in your view, why are the Steelers and the NFL planning to discipline Ben? What exactly did Ben do?

I can't speak for D, but, IMO the Steelers and the NFL are embarassed and IF they discipline Ben it will simply be because of public outcry. The man hasn't been charged with anything at all and the allegations that he did things that brought disrepute to the NFL are purely based on specious testimony.

All the "C'mon man- you know he did it's" in the world don't change that fact.

*ding*

Any discipline imposed is merely a show for the fans of the NFL.

[stlrz d]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

Thanks Stlrz D,

I wouldn't call it too close...I don't know this girl anymore and haven't seen here for decades now. But I became a lot more aware of it after that moment.

I think where we are disconnecting here...is that I agree with you legally speaking, I just feel uneasy about the whole thing.

Personally, both you and I would rather be discussing how the Steelers could be reloading for the new season an not this. I apologize that I cannot cleanly break like you and others that if she reported it then it's fine.

Maybe that is my shortcoming to feel the way I do, but I am fine with it.

Regardless of how this plays out we are both Steeler fans first.

brothervad

No worries man. The reason I can "cleanly break" from it is because I believe that humans are generally good and I simply don't believe anyone would be as brazen as to think they could get away with all of this in a public place in front of all kinds of witnesses.

That and the DTF buttons, conflicting reports from the sorority sisters, the fact that a cop right on the scene said that the accuser was making things up in her claims, the fact that the accuser said "no" when asked if she was raped, Willie's statement that this girl was doing everything she could to get Ben's attention, etc.

[Lebsteel]

[quote=stlrz d]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

D, in your view, why are the Steelers and the NFL planning to discipline Ben? What exactly did Ben do?

I can't speak for D, but, IMO the Steelers and the NFL are embarassed and IF they discipline Ben it will simply be because of public outcry. The man hasn't been charged with anything at all and the allegations that he did things that brought disrepute to the NFL are purely based on specious testimony.

All the "C'mon man- you know he did it's" in the world don't change that fact.

*ding*

Any discipline imposed is merely a show for the fans of the NFL.[/quote:qmjwvha2]

Wow! Really? Do you believe the Air Force is storing aliens in Hangar 18? Man never walked on the moon? The cow jumped over the moon? Just wondering....really, no sarcasm at all.

Maybe Ben is a true saint, is totally innocent of ANY wrongdoing and is taking all these horrible accusations without saying a word so that he can protect the Steelers and the NFL? If that is it, then I am incredibly sorry for believing that he MAY have some small bit of responsibility for this unfortunate incident and damn the Rooneys and the NFL for making Ben the fall guy.

[stlrz d]

[quote=Lebsteel]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

D, in your view, why are the Steelers and the NFL planning to discipline Ben? What exactly did Ben do?

I can't speak for D, but, IMO the Steelers and the NFL are embarassed and IF they discipline Ben it will simply be because of public outcry. The man hasn't been charged with anything at all and the allegations that he did things that brought disrepute to the NFL are purely based on specious testimony.

All the "C'mon man- you know he did it's" in the world don't change that fact.

*ding*

Any discipline imposed is merely a show for the fans of the NFL.

Wow! Really? Do you believe the Air Force is storing aliens in Hangar 18? Man never walked on the moon? The cow jumped over the moon? Just wondering....really, no sarcasm at all.[/quote:3nncqjdo]

No. I don't believe the air force is storing aliens, etc.

Maybe Ben is a true saint, is totally innocent of ANY wrongdoing and is taking all these horrible accusations without saying a word so that he can protect the Steelers and the NFL? If that is it, then I am incredibly sorry for believing that he MAY have some small bit of responsibility for this unfortunate incident and damn the Rooneys and the NFL for making Ben the fall guy.

Now you're gettin' it.

[JAR]

[quote=stlrz d]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

Thanks Stlrz D,

I wouldn't call it too close...I don't know this girl anymore and haven't seen here for decades now. But I became a lot more aware of it after that moment.

I think where we are disconnecting here...is that I agree with you legally speaking, I just feel uneasy about the whole thing.

Personally, both you and I would rather be discussing how the Steelers could be reloading for the new season an not this. I apologize that I cannot cleanly break like you and others that if she reported it then it's fine.

Maybe that is my shortcoming to feel the way I do, but I am fine with it.

Regardless of how this plays out we are both Steeler fans first.

brothervad

No worries man. The reason I can "cleanly break" from it is because I believe that humans are generally good and I simply don't believe anyone would be as brazen as to think they could get away with all of this in a public place in front of all kinds of witnesses.

That and the DTF buttons, conflicting reports from the sorority sisters, the fact that a cop right on the scene said that the accuser was making things up in her claims, the fact that the accuser said "no" when asked if she was raped, Willie's statement that this girl was doing everything she could to get Ben's attention, etc.[/quote:3r42gh0o]


"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant

[feltdizz]

Stlrzd,

Where did I say I know/believe?

The fact remains...if she said no, regardless of Police reports...it's rape.

The problem your having is accepting that it's a possibility.

I am saying to you that I don't know, but I am ready to believe it is possible. It is way too close for comfort.

You fail to even consider that rape victims feel embarrased and maybe even be in a state of denial.

She said No and then said she is not sure...from a legal standpoint makes you right...It wasn't rape from a legal standpoint.

All I am trying to say is if she did say no in that bathroom...it's rape. As I said before the girl I knew tried to commit suicide after the rape...she didn't acknowledge it at the beginnning either.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind...I am suggesting this is way way way too close and I feel a lot better being a Steeler fan, not a Ben fan.

I apologize if the potential for rape makes me uneasy, I guess I am just geared differently.

brothervad

I knew a girl in college who lived in my complex and was raped by a guy who she said was a member of the homeless shelter I worked for...

When I went to report the name of the fellow my superior told me she would not report it to the police or help me.. I quit on the spot.

Rape is a very tough subject and I would never take the side of the guy based on winning football games or the theory of gold digging. This is way too touchy for me to give Ben the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather sit back, have my opinions and hope for the best.

blindly defending the QB is off the table... we are talking about Ben, off the field, with drinks in his system.. I have no idea how good or bad he is when in these situations.

[feltdizz]

[quote=JAR]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

Thanks Stlrz D,

I wouldn't call it too close...I don't know this girl anymore and haven't seen here for decades now. But I became a lot more aware of it after that moment.

I think where we are disconnecting here...is that I agree with you legally speaking, I just feel uneasy about the whole thing.

Personally, both you and I would rather be discussing how the Steelers could be reloading for the new season an not this. I apologize that I cannot cleanly break like you and others that if she reported it then it's fine.

Maybe that is my shortcoming to feel the way I do, but I am fine with it.

Regardless of how this plays out we are both Steeler fans first.

brothervad

No worries man. The reason I can "cleanly break" from it is because I believe that humans are generally good and I simply don't believe anyone would be as brazen as to think they could get away with all of this in a public place in front of all kinds of witnesses.

That and the DTF buttons, conflicting reports from the sorority sisters, the fact that a cop right on the scene said that the accuser was making things up in her claims, the fact that the accuser said "no" when asked if she was raped, Willie's statement that this girl was doing everything she could to get Ben's attention, etc.

"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant





[/quote:7n4f3gzt]

but what happens if you dig in his back yard and find mass graves? LOL!!!

[stlrz d]

Stlrzd,

Where did I say I know/believe?

The fact remains...if she said no, regardless of Police reports...it's rape.

The problem your having is accepting that it's a possibility.

I am saying to you that I don't know, but I am ready to believe it is possible. It is way too close for comfort.

You fail to even consider that rape victims feel embarrased and maybe even be in a state of denial.

She said No and then said she is not sure...from a legal standpoint makes you right...It wasn't rape from a legal standpoint.

All I am trying to say is if she did say no in that bathroom...it's rape. As I said before the girl I knew tried to commit suicide after the rape...she didn't acknowledge it at the beginnning either.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind...I am suggesting this is way way way too close and I feel a lot better being a Steeler fan, not a Ben fan.

I apologize if the potential for rape makes me uneasy, I guess I am just geared differently.

brothervad

I knew a girl in college who lived in my complex and was raped by a guy who she said was a member of the homeless shelter I worked for...

When I went to report the name of the fellow my superior told me she would not report it to the police or help me.. I quit on the spot.

Rape is a very tough subject and I would never take the side of the guy based on winning football games or the theory of gold digging. This is way too touchy for me to give Ben the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather sit back, have my opinions and hope for the best.

blindly defending the QB is off the table... we are talking about Ben, off the field, with drinks in his system.. I have no idea how good or bad he is when in these situations.

Yet you've got no problem having a negative opinion of him.

[SteelStallion]

Like I was trying to say, it's a no-win, lose-lose proposition:


[url="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10108/1051355-66.stm"]http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10108/1051355-66.stm[/url]



As the CEO of an iconic family-run business, a business that happens to be the most successful single entity in the most successful league enterprise in the history of American sport, Art Rooney II has at his disposal a nuclear arsenal of brainpower.

He's got lawyers, accountants, communications experts, public relations wizards, marketing masters, spin doctors, head doctors, physicians, surgeons, internists, outurnists and a genealogy that represents little less than an intellectual Fort Knox of accumulated knowledge on the topic of how to run a professional football franchise.

But what he doesn't have, and what he really needs, is one of those little 5x7 index cards with "If This ..." on one side and "Then That ..." on the other. The kind coaches refer to when they can't remember whether it's better to go for one point or two at specific points relative the scoreboard's illuminated arithmetic.

No, Art II can't sit down at his desk overlooking an expanse of practice fields near the end of South Water Street and run his finger over a chart until he comes to "Super Bowl MVP wideout, alleged to have thrown a full glass at a female at 2:30 a.m., tweets that the fans don't cut his check and might want to consider offing themselves while he plans idly to 'wake and bake' despite previous drug violation," and then match it with the corresponding part of the chart, "trade him to the Jets for a fifth-round pick."

Decisions like what to do with a bonehead like Holmes, much less what to do with an evident serial misogynist All-Pro quarterback like Big Bad Ben Roethlisberger, are viciously complicated and aren't made a lick easier even by any of the expertise available to a third generation of Rooney stewardship.

The Steelers, in fact, could be led deftly into their NFL future by fourth and fifth generations of Rooneys without encountering a decision as difficult as the one Roethlisberger presents.

If they separate themselves from No. 7, they risk competitive irrelevance for an indeterminate period, during which some portion of their fan base might be irretrievably alienated. If they don't, they risk a turbulent future during which the face of the organization is better known for another exposed body part, all amid a climate where the franchise with the greatest percentage of female fans is likely to take a thunderous public relations hit. That portion of the season-ticket base with college-age daughters is already at risk.

You want to make that call?

Plenty of people do, and, as usual in the post-modern Era of the Loud, the middle ground has been abandoned. The afflicted either want nothing to do with the Steelers so long as 7 is whipping passes, or they accuse anyone who is the least bit uncomfortable with a 28-year-old quarterback who would follow a vulnerable, saloon-faced college girl into a bathroom of being psychotic to the point of failing to grasp the urgency of Any Given Sunday.

Before Holmes was traded, someone called the Subway Nightly Sports Call to complain that I'd used the term "baggage" in relation to the aforementioned bonehead.

"What baggage?" our guest wondered.

"Well, he was arrested twice before he even got the uniform on," I said.

"Hey," he said. "Your memory must be short-lived. These guys won us the Super Bowl. What does baggage have to do with anything?"

Sorry. The right question is, "What does the Super Bowl, or anyone's contribution to it, have to do with anything?"

Not to quibble, but what have six Lombardi Trophies done for Pittsburgh? Have they saved a single manufacturing job? Have they arrested infant mortality? Have they erased the city's budget deficit? The goal is a productive, forward thinking, civil society around here, not the seasonal consolation prize of embarrassing the Cleveland Browns, when possible.

What the Steelers have done for much of the past 40 years is afforded their fans in the city and worldwide some sense of pride, nothing more and certainly nothing less, but pride is a little more complicated and a little more delicate than what can be described by the club's situation within the relatively silly politics of the AFC North.

Somebody's going to be very, um, unprideful, the next time the quarterback is implicated in this kind of creepy mess. He already has had to stand next to Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert and swear he wouldn't put himself in this position again, and within eight months, put himself in this position again.

Any guesses on how many times he did it without getting caught?

I wouldn't want to be in Art II's position, and, regardless of what he decides, he'll do it with more information and better instincts than I. But some NFL team is going to be judged as the enabler of the next boozy assault on a defenseless female, and a lot of people in this town would prefer it's not the Steelers.

The Steelers can and should get out from under this guy. They can keep Ben and assist in his attempted rehabilitation, but that's a bathroom I wouldn't walk into.


Gene Collier: [email="gcollier@post-gazette.com"]gcollier@post-gazette.com[/email].


Read more: [url="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10108/1051355-66.stm#ixzz0lTfGmaA8"]http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10108/10 ... z0lTfGmaA8[/url]

[feltdizz]

Yet you've got no problem having a negative opinion of him.

No problem? LOL!!! More like no choice!!!

Please list the positives in this incident. I can think of 2...

1) No charges...
2) cutting the mullet...
3)
4)
5)