God, Theology, Dogma....

[Shawn]

Yeah. The not judging part is a challenge.

I'm not one to assume my version of Christianity is better than the next guy's. I tend to think it is entirely likely that whatever God/gods exist, they are petulant and irrational. The ancient Greek beliefs that the gods were basically a bunch of really powerful high school kids explains how the world works a lot better than Christianity in my opinion.

But then again, I think the human need to understand and rationalize everything is one of the biggest reasons why traditional faith is under assault. So many people look around them and say no loving God would allow X, Y, and Z. But who says life is fair or God is loving and rational? Or who says what seems rational to god is going to be rational for us?

I guess I just expect a lot less from my deity. Some righteous wrath towards atheists that mock him would be pretty cool though.

I believe spiritual things to be difficult to grasp. We are built carnal and any attempt to rise above will be met by moanings of the flesh. I think it's also difficult to wrap our minds around God in the sense that we are limited finite beings. When I look around me...I see alot of pain, but I also see alot of good. My understanding of these things would be hogwash to some and a gem to another. That's what makes the world go around. I have found peace in the mist of it all. Of course it's a journey and I don't have it all figured out. And I guess it's this fact that keeps me humble during the process.

Not judging others is very difficult. I struggle with it as well. But, I know it doesn't bring anything good into my life. I want to weed my own garden these days.

[ricardisimo]

Hold the presses! [url=http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/6/4/544.abstract]This just in[/url]...

I'm not sure how it relates to our previous debate, but it is, if nothing else, new information (or perhaps just a reinterpretation.)

I don't speak for all non-believers, but I dare say the "superiority" thing is a figment of your imagination. I've been accused of it when saying nothing more than "I don't get what you're saying" to a Christian. Jumping to that conclusion - when you couldn't possibly know if another human being is "feeling superior" - is wrong on many counts, and may betray your own insecurities.

I don't know if your Mohammad comment gives us a glimpse into your own view of Islam, other religions, perhaps some personal fears, whatever... but Muslims make up about one half of one percent of the country. Atheists actually outnumber them. Why exactly would you find it "brave" to poke fun at such a small minority?

Meanwhile something like 80% of the country is Christian, many of them violently so. I do indeed loudly and proudly tell any believers who will listen a.) there's another way to look at the world; b.) They should do a deep, detailed accounting of their own religion and god, and look into some of his/her more disturbing words and deeds before they proceed any further.

[Shawn]

Hold the presses! [url=http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/6/4/544.abstract]This just in[/url]...

I'm not sure how it relates to our previous debate, but it is, if nothing else, new information (or perhaps just a reinterpretation.)

I don't speak for all non-believers, but I dare say the "superiority" thing is a figment of your imagination. I've been accused of it when saying nothing more than "I don't get what you're saying" to a Christian. Jumping to that conclusion - when you couldn't possibly know if another human being is "feeling superior" - is wrong on many counts, and may betray your own insecurities.

I don't know if your Mohammad comment gives us a glimpse into your own view of Islam, other religions, perhaps some personal fears, whatever... but Muslims make up about one half of one percent of the country. Atheists actually outnumber them. Why exactly would you find it "brave" to poke fun at such a small minority?

Meanwhile something like 80% of the country is Christian, many of them violently so. I do indeed loudly and proudly tell any believers who will listen a.) there's another way to look at the world; b.) They should do a deep, detailed accounting of their own religion and god, and look into some of his/her more disturbing words and deeds before they proceed any further.

I think the brave comment came from some of the death threats made to those who disrespect Mohammed and their faith. And I'm not sure I can say many Christians are violent Christians. As said before I don't condone militant Christianity. I do not condone violence of any kind and do not see this trend within the churches I attend. While I do know some sects who like to picket gay rights parades with hate signs I wouldn't call this a representation of Christianity. In actuality I believe these individuals don't get it. When the mob wanted to stone the adultress Jesus said to the mob, Let he without sin cast the first stone. He loved the person and told her to repent and not to do sin any longer. As Christians we have been called above all to love our neighbor. I don't believe picketing gay rights parades constitutes love. Thats just one man's opinion.

And I agree with you about exploration of what you actually believe. I have combed in depth to be able to discern tradition and teachings of men vs true Biblical meaning. And I have seen some trends and beliefs that disturbed me. It has been a journey of enlightenment and directed a more personal relationship with God. There is much value to looking for yourself rather than just accepting what is preached from the pulpit.

[ricardisimo]

Amen.

[flippy]

This religion stuff is kinda funny, kinda awkward, kinda serious, and kinda impossible not to offend someone with something you believe.

On one side, you've got Jesus telling Christians to "make disciples". So if you are a Christian, you've gotta push your faith onto others at some level. And to some degree, the more militant you are, the better you are following Christ's desires. Look at how Paul ended up in prison. Paul's the model of creating disciples in the Bible and he used his earthly connections as Saul to be so successful. IMHO, Paul's one of the most interesting characters in the Bible and we can learn from his story both religiously and secularly.

Making disciples kinda requires people of faith to be militant.

But on the flip side, we don't want to encounter militant people with opposing views to our own. But isn't being militant a reflection of strong faith? The more militant one is, the more he/she is convinced in his/her beliefs. That's not a bad thing, but it does make for awkwardness in these discussions. And it's probably why most don't participate in this type of discussion.

And even innocent questions about faith or lack thereof seem militant to those who have the strongest faith.

I think the biggest hangup people have with religion is people. 99.9% of Christians are the pharisees and sadducees that Jesus confronted. Heck, I should probably say 100%. And these Christians somehow confuse being "set apart" from the world to do Christ's work in the world with being "set above" the world of non believers.

I see the fine line between "set apart" and "set above" as the sticking point between people on both sides. And people get so fired up over this line. Wars are fought over this line. And it's downright silly.

I think we can all agree that there's work to be done in this world. And we all have unique abilities and talents that need to be used and refined to make the world a better place.

If it takes religion for some of us to realize it, great. If it takes someone else a unicorn driven flying saucer to realize it, great.

At the end of the day, we're just people looking for purpose who find it where we find it.

And I know this may be odd to say, but I see more of God (goodness or whatever you want to call it) outside the walls of religion.

This whole topic is kinda weird. And that's probably why I kinda enjoy the discusssion.

Thanks for keeping this going.

[frankthetank1]

what i will never understand is why do some people care what other people think and believe? i can see maybe if its a family member or friend, but a complete stranger? that is very odd to me. to me it seems very obsessive and unhealthy.

personally i could careless what anyone believes in. i have some very religious family members and that is fine by me. as long as they dont preach to me we are good. im not religious in the least and i never will be. its a personal choice just like everything else is in this country. freedom of speech is one thing, but when you use it to put down or harass other people about religion or politics than you are abusing that right.

[flippy]

what i will never understand is why do some people care what other people think and believe?

It's ingrained in us at a young age. We're first brainwashed by our parents and then our peers. And we have this desire to fit in and be accepted.

I catch myself saying stupid stuff my mom or dad would say all the time. I don't always buy into it when I think about it, but I was brainwashed to act and think like they do. And I can't break away from all of it no matter how hard I try.

And then we leave home and go to school for the first time and find out we have to conform to make friends. Or at least we think we do. It's cool to laugh at the fat kid. Or to want to be popular like the rich kid. Or pretty like someone else.

Before long we realize we're weird. Notice our own faults and shortcomings. And try to overcome them and just fit in and have an easy life.

This perfect image we have for what we want to be is all screwed up by the media and reinforced by our family and friends.

So what do we do. Conform or rebel? And most rebels end up conforming to some weird set of social norms and fitting in with a different crowd.

The problem is no one's happy being themselves. And being different. And we surround ourselves with people and friends and family just like us. Cause it's easier that way. We create walls around ourselves to protect ourselves.

And these walls get bigger as the years go by. So we care to make sure we fit in the walls we build around our close circles.

I'm with you though, it sucks. And if I want to be around people that share my same thoughts and interests, why not just be alone?

I like people with different thoughts. They're what makes life interesting.

Why would I want to be like them or have them think like me.

That would be sooooo boring.

[Shawn]

This religion stuff is kinda funny, kinda awkward, kinda serious, and kinda impossible not to offend someone with something you believe.

On one side, you've got Jesus telling Christians to "make disciples". So if you are a Christian, you've gotta push your faith onto others at some level. And to some degree, the more militant you are, the better you are following Christ's desires. Look at how Paul ended up in prison. Paul's the model of creating disciples in the Bible and he used his earthly connections as Saul to be so successful. IMHO, Paul's one of the most interesting characters in the Bible and we can learn from his story both religiously and secularly.

Making disciples kinda requires people of faith to be militant.

But on the flip side, we don't want to encounter militant people with opposing views to our own. But isn't being militant a reflection of strong faith? The more militant one is, the more he/she is convinced in his/her beliefs. That's not a bad thing, but it does make for awkwardness in these discussions. And it's probably why most don't participate in this type of discussion.

And even innocent questions about faith or lack thereof seem militant to those who have the strongest faith.

I think the biggest hangup people have with religion is people. 99.9% of Christians are the pharisees and sadducees that Jesus confronted. Heck, I should probably say 100%. And these Christians somehow confuse being "set apart" from the world to do Christ's work in the world with being "set above" the world of non believers.

I see the fine line between "set apart" and "set above" as the sticking point between people on both sides. And people get so fired up over this line. Wars are fought over this line. And it's downright silly.

I think we can all agree that there's work to be done in this world. And we all have unique abilities and talents that need to be used and refined to make the world a better place.

If it takes religion for some of us to realize it, great. If it takes someone else a unicorn driven flying saucer to realize it, great.

At the end of the day, we're just people looking for purpose who find it where we find it.

And I know this may be odd to say, but I see more of God (goodness or whatever you want to call it) outside the walls of religion.

This whole topic is kinda weird. And that's probably why I kinda enjoy the discusssion.

Thanks for keeping this going.

I think you and I have very different versions of the term militant Christianity. First, yes Christians should share the gospel. But, how does one do that? We shouldn't confuse Paul's mission with our own. Paul was born to spread the gospel to the Gentiles. We as Christians are called to love our neighbor. You spread the Gospel by loving your neighbor and by living a spiritual life guided by scripture. I force my beliefs on no one. But, if my walk makes those around me curious enough to ask...I will share until they don't want to listen anymore.

When I think of militant Christians...I think about those who understand the law but do not understand grace. I think of those willing to picket a gay rights parade. I think of those calling girls at an abortion clinic baby killers (mind you I am very pro life). I think of those who don't blink an eye at the concept of eternal torment. They are willing to usurp God's throne and sort people into categories...heaven bound...hell bound. This I want nothing to do with.

[MCHammer]

Hold the presses! [url=http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/6/4/544.abstract]This just in[/url]...

I'm not sure how it relates to our previous debate, but it is, if nothing else, new information (or perhaps just a reinterpretation.)

I don't speak for all non-believers, but I dare say the "superiority" thing is a figment of your imagination. I've been accused of it when saying nothing more than "I don't get what you're saying" to a Christian. Jumping to that conclusion - when you couldn't possibly know if another human being is "feeling superior" - is wrong on many counts, and may betray your own insecurities.

I believe this was addressed to me and so I will answer. My comments were based on my own experience and not intended to apply to all non-believers or all atheists. Indeed, Christians themselves can put on the "superior" act just as anyone else. But what I was referring to was hardly a figment of my imagination. Rather it is the real-life behavior of people I know, some of whom I am quite close to. I don't bring it up with them and generally don't preach or criticize the religious views of my friends. I'm no Bible beater myself and never have been.

Far from betraying insecurities, I've never felt the need to assert my superiority with silly bumper stickers designed to mock people with whom I disagree. I think it says far more about the person who puts something like that on his car than it does about the belief system it purports to mock.

I don't know if your Mohammad comment gives us a glimpse into your own view of Islam, other religions, perhaps some personal fears, whatever... but Muslims make up about one half of one percent of the country. Atheists actually outnumber them. Why exactly would you find it "brave" to poke fun at such a small minority?

Because one of them might kill you. Christians are unlikely to do that. Of course we can all pretend otherwise, if you like.

Other than that, of course, is actually the whole PC aspect to it. Making fun of Christians is easy and not really controversial unless you wonder into a church or religious club to do it. Public mocking of Christians is not likely to lead to any censure in our society.

Public mocking of Muslims...not sure that has been approved by the PC crowd yet. That would be insensitive, I'd wager. Which brings me back to my atheist buddy and his co-hort of douches. I'm betting they wouldn't put bumper stickers on their cars that demean Mohammed and I'm betting they won't make any public proclamations about Mohammed's sex with children anytime soon.

Meanwhile something like 80% of the country is Christian, many of them violently so. I do indeed loudly and proudly tell any believers who will listen a.) there's another way to look at the world; b.) They should do a deep, detailed accounting of their own religion and god, and look into some of his/her more disturbing words and deeds before they proceed any further

I'm not aware of too many violent Christians in this country. Perhaps you can enlighten me, but it seems only a small sliver of violent crime or terrorist-style bombings can be linked to Christian-related motives.

[flippy]

This religion stuff is kinda funny, kinda awkward, kinda serious, and kinda impossible not to offend someone with something you believe.

On one side, you've got Jesus telling Christians to "make disciples". So if you are a Christian, you've gotta push your faith onto others at some level. And to some degree, the more militant you are, the better you are following Christ's desires. Look at how Paul ended up in prison. Paul's the model of creating disciples in the Bible and he used his earthly connections as Saul to be so successful. IMHO, Paul's one of the most interesting characters in the Bible and we can learn from his story both religiously and secularly.

Making disciples kinda requires people of faith to be militant.

But on the flip side, we don't want to encounter militant people with opposing views to our own. But isn't being militant a reflection of strong faith? The more militant one is, the more he/she is convinced in his/her beliefs. That's not a bad thing, but it does make for awkwardness in these discussions. And it's probably why most don't participate in this type of discussion.

And even innocent questions about faith or lack thereof seem militant to those who have the strongest faith.

I think the biggest hangup people have with religion is people. 99.9% of Christians are the pharisees and sadducees that Jesus confronted. Heck, I should probably say 100%. And these Christians somehow confuse being "set apart" from the world to do Christ's work in the world with being "set above" the world of non believers.

I see the fine line between "set apart" and "set above" as the sticking point between people on both sides. And people get so fired up over this line. Wars are fought over this line. And it's downright silly.

I think we can all agree that there's work to be done in this world. And we all have unique abilities and talents that need to be used and refined to make the world a better place.

If it takes religion for some of us to realize it, great. If it takes someone else a unicorn driven flying saucer to realize it, great.

At the end of the day, we're just people looking for purpose who find it where we find it.

And I know this may be odd to say, but I see more of God (goodness or whatever you want to call it) outside the walls of religion.

This whole topic is kinda weird. And that's probably why I kinda enjoy the discusssion.

Thanks for keeping this going.

I think you and I have very different versions of the term militant Christianity. First, yes Christians should share the gospel. But, how does one do that? We shouldn't confuse Paul's mission with our own. Paul was born to spread the gospel to the Gentiles. We as Christians are called to love our neighbor. You spread the Gospel by loving your neighbor and by living a spiritual life guided by scripture. I force my beliefs on no one. But, if my walk makes those around me curious enough to ask...I will share until they don't want to listen anymore.

When I think of militant Christians...I think about those who understand the law but do not understand grace. I think of those willing to picket a gay rights parade. I think of those calling girls at an abortion clinic baby killers (mind you I am very pro life). I think of those who don't blink an eye at the concept of eternal torment. They are willing to usurp God's throne and sort people into categories...heaven bound...hell bound. This I want nothing to do with.

I know what you are saying. But if someone really believes, why not be militant in your beliefs? Jesus commands the making of disciples.

This is life or death stuff. Isn't that worth fighting for?

Not that I condone this. But I can see why strong believers feel called to being militant. And in a sense I see all Christians tending toward this way. We're supposed to spread the good word.

Granted, you don't see most people doing this blatantly and they tend to act more like you or I in real life. But we are called to act as Christians.

And that's a weird line we're asked to cross. Some people go all in and cross it. Others tiptoe across it. But we all act in some way to spread the word.

On the one hand, I don't care what other people think. But God tells me I should. That's a major conflict between me and God.