2019 MNFE CHAMPION
1-Who on the roster had a 100 million dollar contract and monstrous salary cap hit in replacing all those players from the 90's?Originally Posted by Jooser
2-How in the world do you think with 1/2 the league running the 3/4 that there is an advantage in drafting players for the 3/4 when so little 3/4 is used in college so those 'tweener' players, which there are fewer high caliber guys like that than there are 4-3 prospects due to colleges running the 4-3? Makes no sense. I am all for the 3-4 and as I said already, prefer it. It is tougher to draft though. And the most the players you do draft need more time to adjust and learn the 3-4 responsibilities and adjustments.
3-In the past 20 years have we had so many players in their 30's nearing the end of their careers with so few backups ready to step in being groomed to replace them, which you gotta admit, there are a lot of roster spots that need replaced in the near future, starters and backups.
Hampton
A. Smith
Farrior
Deshea
Ty Carter
Gay
Hoke
Kirshke
Harrison is no spring chicken
Troy is 29...how long can he play the way he does and stay healthy?
I don't think the sky is falling. These areas can be adressed. But, this argument pretty much started because I said Colbert needs to draft better and we need to develop younger players faster. I think both of those statements are true. I think every draft pick we make should be on defensive players other than one RB in the middle rounds. Here is our draft history.....
QB
1 11 Ben Roethlisberger QB Miami (Ohio)
5 156 Dennis Dixon QB Oregon
5 163 Brian St. Pierre QB Boston College
5 164 Omar Jacobs QB Bowling Green State
RB
1 23 Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
5 169 Frank Summers RB UNLV
7 240 Cedric Humes RB Virginia Tech
7 242 J.T. Wall FB Georgia
7 244 Noah Herron RB Northwestern
WR
1 25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State
2 53 Limas Sweed WR Texas
3 84 Mike Wallace WR Mississippi
3 95 Willie Reid WR Florida State
4 131 Fred Gibson WR Georgia
7 227 Dallas Baker WR Florida
TE
1 30 Heath Miller TE Virginia
3 77 Matt Spaeth TE Minnesota
5 167 Charles Davis TE Purdue
6 194 Matt Kranchick TE Penn State
7 241 David Johnson TE Arkansas State
OL
3 75 Max Starks T Florida
3 79 Kraig Urbik G Wisconsin
3 93 Trai Essex T Northwestern
4 130 Tony Hills T Texas
4 131 Willie Colon T Hofstra
5 156 Cameron Stephenson G Rutgers
6 177 Bo Lacy T Arkansas
6 197 Drew Caylor C Stanford
6 201 Marvin Philip C California
6 204 Chris Kemoeatu G Utah
7 226 A.Q. Shipley C Penn State
DL
1 32 Evander Hood DE/DT Missouri
4 132 Ryan McBean DE Oklahoma State
4 133 Orien Harris DT Miami (Fla.)
6 205 Ra’Shon Harris DE Oregon
7 212 Eric Taylor DT Memphis
7 228 Shaun Nua DE Brigham Young
We hit on one out of 6 DL. Of couse a first rounder. And really, too early to tell if we did well with Hood or not.
LB
1 15 Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State
2 46 LaMarr Woodley LB Michigan
2 59 Alonzo Jackson LB Florida State
3 88 Bruce Davis LB UCLA
5 145 Nathaniel Adibi DE Virginia Tech
5 166 Rian Wallace LB Temple
6 188 Mike Humpal OLB Iowa
We hit on two LB out of 7 draftees. And truth be told I am unsure Timmons is a 3 down player.
DB
1 16 Troy Polamalu DB USC
2 38 Ricardo Colclough CB Tusculum
2 62 Bryant McFadden DB Florida State
3 83 Anthony Smith DB Syracuse
3 96 Keenen Lewis CB Oregon State
4 125 Ike Taylor CB Louisiana-Lafayette
5 168 Joe Burnett CB Central Florida
5 170 William Gay CB Louisville
6 194 Ryan Mundy FS West Virginia
Other
4 112 Daniel Sepulveda P Baylor
@_Hellgrammite
You're killing me dude, don't stroke out there, OK?
2019 MNFE CHAMPION
Ok.
I am fine. Just looking at things analytically rather than through the bottom of a glass filled with koolaid. Like I said, I think things can be fixed but we have to draft better than we have or hit up FA to fill key holes. I don't think you have to turn into Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder to a key hole or two.
@_Hellgrammite
Sorry it has taken me awhile to respond. My opinion of the defense in 2008? It performed well however IMO the cracks began to appear that led to the issues of this past season. We saw it in the Super Bowl where the Cardinals starting picking us apart late in the game and if not for Arians high powered passing offense bringing us back we would had lost that game.
The problem remains why can't we get young players contributing. In 2008 we were lucky we had no injuries to our core team. That is the exception rather than the rule in the NFL. The advocates on both sides of the argument will not budge but there is a reason our defense has aged and its not because we have Pro Bowl players at every position who are irreplaceable. We saw that this past season.
The weaknesses of our defense are:
1. Too many hit or miss draftees and free agents because we force players to "convert" to new positions which is a multi-year process in most cases. I think we would get more sooner by having players play their natural positions. I feel this will become even a bigger issue as the college game goes more to spread offenses and the DL and LB players that are developed in college become more lighter, faster guys versus what you need on a 3-4 DL and LB corps. Look at the top rated DL from any source this season and look specifically at the DEs. Sixty to seventy percent of those players won't even be on our draft board because they are 6'4" to 6'7" and 250 to 275lbs and don't project to 3-4 DEs. But they are some of the best speed pass rushers in the draft and we ignore that talent pool every year.
2. A scheme that when it works is great but when it doesn't can be really bad. One player goes down in the secondary and we can no longer defende the pass against good and bad teams. Is a scheme designed to rely that much on one player really smart or effective????
3. A scheme that relies on getting to the QB very play in a league where holding is tolerated to the point of mugging defensive players. We saw this past season that the refs aren't going to call holding unless a player is essentially tackled but we still play 10 yards off the receivers and give up a high percentage of pass completions. I saw abosolutely no adjustments this past season by LeBeau as we got picked apart. it was like we had no other option. That doesn't portend well for the future if our D Coord has no answers.
The reality is that no matter what I or other 4-3 advocates believe this team will stay with the 3-4 for the forseeable future. Unfortunately IMO I think we will see more of what we saw last season because LeBeau won't change the scheme and we won't get the young players on the field that we need to.
"My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"
You can put the kibosh on the kool-aid comments. Like I posted before, history is on my side and not yours. That's not kool-aid. That's the truth.Ok.
I am fine. Just looking at things analytically rather than through the bottom of a glass filled with koolaid. Like I said, I think things can be fixed but we have to draft better than we have or hit up FA to fill key holes. I don't think you have to turn into Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder to a key hole or two.
You say Ben's $100 million contract could hurt the team because it's less money to pay other players, yet you want the Steelers to be more active in signing name free agents. That makes zero sense. That is a contradiction. The Steelers do use FA to fill spots, but they do so with value players that make the team better, not big names to make fans like you feel better "because they're finally doing something".
Of course if they did go out and sign a big name FA and it didn't work out then you'd be complaining about that too.
Could the Steelers draft better? Yes. Could other teams draft better? Yes. The draft is not an exact science. Teams will typically miss more than they hit. That's the nature of the draft. Fortunately for us the Steelers draft well and find value FA's (and sometimes even UDFA's) to fill needs. It's a formula that has proved to be successful and I hope they continue with it since it does work quite well. The Steelers are pointed to as being the prime example of how to run a pro sports franchise for a reason.
The issues did not start with the Cardinals in the SB. Sometimes those things happen by a game by game basis. The Cardinals had a very good offensive team. They did some pretty good things against other good defensive teams.Sorry it has taken me awhile to respond. My opinion of the defense in 2008? It performed well however IMO the cracks began to appear that led to the issues of this past season. We saw it in the Super Bowl where the Cardinals starting picking us apart late in the game and if not for Arians high powered passing offense bringing us back we would had lost that game.
The problem remains why can't we get young players contributing. In 2008 we were lucky we had no injuries to our core team. That is the exception rather than the rule in the NFL. The advocates on both sides of the argument will not budge but there is a reason our defense has aged and its not because we have Pro Bowl players at every position who are irreplaceable. We saw that this past season.
The weaknesses of our defense are:
1. Too many hit or miss draftees and free agents because we force players to "convert" to new positions which is a multi-year process in most cases. I think we would get more sooner by having players play their natural positions. I feel this will become even a bigger issue as the college game goes more to spread offenses and the DL and LB players that are developed in college become more lighter, faster guys versus what you need on a 3-4 DL and LB corps. Look at the top rated DL from any source this season and look specifically at the DEs. Sixty to seventy percent of those players won't even be on our draft board because they are 6'4" to 6'7" and 250 to 275lbs and don't project to 3-4 DEs. But they are some of the best speed pass rushers in the draft and we ignore that talent pool every year.
2. A scheme that when it works is great but when it doesn't can be really bad. One player goes down in the secondary and we can no longer defende the pass against good and bad teams. Is a scheme designed to rely that much on one player really smart or effective????
3. A scheme that relies on getting to the QB very play in a league where holding is tolerated to the point of mugging defensive players. We saw this past season that the refs aren't going to call holding unless a player is essentially tackled but we still play 10 yards off the receivers and give up a high percentage of pass completions. I saw abosolutely no adjustments this past season by LeBeau as we got picked apart. it was like we had no other option. That doesn't portend well for the future if our D Coord has no answers.
The reality is that no matter what I or other 4-3 advocates believe this team will stay with the 3-4 for the forseeable future. Unfortunately IMO I think we will see more of what we saw last season because LeBeau won't change the scheme and we won't get the young players on the field that we need to.
They get young players to contribute. Most teams are lucky never to have any key injuries. There are players on teams that simply can't be replaced no matter how well younger or older players are prepare. The Steelers defense has aged for several reasons. Some of those older players still play at a high level and take a significant amount of cap space, they missed on some defensive players, they tried to maintain a balance between offensive and defensive first round picks, & the natural cycle of the NFL are a few reasons that come to mind. I think some of you guys have unrealistic expectations. It is amazing that this organization has been able to be a major contender/factor for so many season. So much so that a lot of fans take it for granted.
Show me a team that does not have any defensive weaknesses?
1) Not every draft pick is going to make the team. A very high percentage of draft picks don't last with teams. We can sit here and go over our own philosophies of how the team should be run. The Steelers have a philosophy that works. Things may change under new the new president and ownership. Unfortunately, Dan is gone.
2) As I stated before, great players can't be replaced. All teams can do is try to compensate for their losses. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not.
3) How do you know if there were or were not adjustments? The NFL is about the players. The players have to execute no matter what scheme is being called. What kills me is that all teams play 10 yard cushions. They play the 10 yard cushion for various reasons. If they played more bump & run and got burned people would question why they play bump & run. What defensive scheme does not rely on getting pressure to the QB? Teams try to do it different ways.
The scheme is fine.
You can put the kibosh on the kool-aid comments. Like I posted before, history is on my side and not yours. That's not kool-aid. That's the truth.Ok.
I am fine. Just looking at things analytically rather than through the bottom of a glass filled with koolaid. Like I said, I think things can be fixed but we have to draft better than we have or hit up FA to fill key holes. I don't think you have to turn into Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder to a key hole or two.
History isn't on your side. We are facing situations in our franchise we haven't had to face before. Once again you fail to address the specifics I mention. Huge cap hit by franchise QB we didn't have to deal with before so have to fill roster spots with less cap space. Half the league running the 3-4 now so tough to draft. Mass amount of players nearing the end all at once, go look at the players over 30 on our D. Immediate upgrades needed for Gay, Deshea, Carter who clearly showed they can't cover anyone. Thin backups at OLB and ILB. You didn't address anything. Simply saying 'history is on my side' is a ridiculous argument.
You say Ben's $100 million contract could hurt the team because it's less money to pay other players, yet you want the Steelers to be more active in signing name free agents. That makes zero sense. That is a contradiction. The Steelers do use FA to fill spots, but they do so with value players that make the team better, not big names to make fans like you feel better "because they're finally doing something".
Putting words in my mouth to try and suit your argument. Point out to me where I said 'NAME FREE AGENTS'. Please do so. Your argument is void after that lie right there.
Of course if they did go out and sign a big name FA and it didn't work out then you'd be complaining about that too.
See above. Your ranting off of something I never said genious.
Could the Steelers draft better? Yes. Could other teams draft better? Yes. The draft is not an exact science. Teams will typically miss more than they hit. That's the nature of the draft. Fortunately for us the Steelers draft well and find value FA's (and sometimes even UDFA's) to fill needs. It's a formula that has proved to be successful and I hope they continue with it since it does work quite well. The Steelers are pointed to as being the prime example of how to run a pro sports franchise for a reason.
@_Hellgrammite
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks