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Thread: If Kurt Warner Retires...

  1. #41

    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    I hope that doesn't happen I like Whisenhunt and hope he's successful. Larry Fitz is a class act, Whiz and Grimm served the Steelers well. I'd hate to see him crash and burn.

    Pappy
    I agree, especially seeing how I just found out Fitz and I are alumni of Valley Forge Military Academy. I can't hope for one of my corp brothers to fail! Unless he is playing against the Stillers

  2. #42
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonbull
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    2. What do you mean "lack of overall production"? He's one of the most productive QB's in the league. And yes, he has won a Superbowl, so you can't say he's never won in the big games. And no, I'm using his entire career numbers as my guidelines. Last time I checked, YOU were the one who was trying to judge Warner based off 2009 alone. Hypocrite, much?
    Actually YOU are the one who pointed out his -

    MVP status from almost 10 years ago
    His success with the Rams almost 10 years ago.
    His Super Bowl Victory almost 10 years ago.
    His overall playoff performance from his entire career.

    All of those are things you brought up - hence why I thought you must be writing about Top 5 overall - because none of that has anything to do with 2009. And from what I'm reading you ARE using his history as the guideline for your debate.

    My original statement was that when he's been surrounded with talent (like the Cardinals now, and the Rams back in the day) he's been either very productive or (in this case) in the top 1/3rd of the league.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    By the way, I never said he was top 5 of all time - I said he was top 5 of QB's in the league today. Stop putting words in my mouth.
    Since we now both agree that the basis of the debate is how good Warner was in 2009 I'll focus solely on Kurt Warner being a Top 5 QB in 2009.

    Kurt Warner was NOT a Top 10 QB in passing yards.

    Kurt Warner was tied for 10th in Touchdowns this season (with Ben and Tony Romo).

    Kurt Warner was 10th in Passer Rating this season.

    Kurt Warner was 6th in Pass Completion %

    Kurt Warner was 7th in Passing TD %

    He's tied for 10th in how many victories his team produced.

    Again - as you can see there isn't any statistical proof that he cracks the Top 5 - in fact there isn't even a stat where he breaks the Top 5 in 2009. And I would certainly argue that he has better WR's than most QB's in the league - so it certainly isn't regarding his surrounding core.

    My question to those who are telling me he is a Top 5 QB - is what guidelines are you using?

    L.B.
    Okay, first off, when someone says top 5 QB of "all time", they usually mean as in the history of football. You said top 5 QB of "all time". What I'm talking about are QB's who are currently active in the league today. And no, I'm not JUST using his stats from "10 years ago" I'm using his entire career - and even now, he's a very productive QB. I've backed that fact up many times. I even point to his playoff success from LAST YEAR, yet you still bring up this "10 years ago" stuff over and over. So tell me: are you deliberately trying to be difficult, or are you just stupid?

    Secondly, I stand by what I said. I said you have to judge a QB by the whole picture. I never said you have to judge him based off of 2009 stats alone. While he may not have had the best 2009 season out of the whole league, that still doesn't mean he's not a top 5 QB. Big Ben was not even in the top 10 quarterbacks in a lot of stats in '08. Would you have said he's not a top 10 QB?

    And way to ignore all my other points. Seems like you just want to ignore everything that doesn't fit your argument.

    Finally, as far as what "guidelines" I'm using - again, are you stupid? I've made that clear a lot of times. I'm using the whole package: rating, %, YPA, wins, playoffs, etc.

  3. #43
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz
    Quote Originally Posted by MeetJoeGreene
    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz
    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    I hope that doesn't happen I like Whisenhunt and hope he's successful. Larry Fitz is a class act, Whiz and Grimm served the Steelers well. I'd hate to see him crash and burn.

    Pappy
    I guess you are right... Fitz was a Panther and I have no real hate towards the guy... it's the homer fans who use him vs Tomlin that get to me...
    If he loses Warner the Cards go 2004 game manager...I was surprised Whiz passed with Leinart before the half.
    I am with the dizzmeister. I do loke Whiz, but find myself rooting against him just so I don't have to hear the blah blah overpaid janitor blah blah Rooney Rule blah blah Whiz do more with a crappy team blah blah.

    (For the record: I actually wanted Whiz for the Steelers coach.. but have moved on).
    I wouldn't have minded Whiz but I wasn't surprised... same thing happened when Cowher was hired. Everyone was like "WHO?"

    On paper I think Tomlin had a better resume than Cowher when he was hired.. I think.

    Cowher didn't back Whiz either... what was that about?
    Actually, Cowher had 3 years (I think) of being a defensive coordinator with the Chiefs before he took the job. He definitely had the better resume; I wanted Whiz, we have Mile Tomlin and I like him.

    Pappy


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  4. #44

    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    Okay, first off, when someone says top 5 QB of "all time", they usually mean as in the history of football. You said top 5 QB of "all time". What I'm talking about are QB's who are currently active in the league today. And no, I'm not JUST using his stats from "10 years ago" I'm using his entire career - and even now, he's a very productive QB. I've backed that fact up many times. I even point to his playoff success from LAST YEAR, yet you still bring up this "10 years ago" stuff over and over. So tell me: are you deliberately trying to be difficult, or are you just stupid?

    Secondly, I stand by what I said. I said you have to judge a QB by the whole picture. I never said you have to judge him based off of 2009 stats alone. While he may not have had the best 2009 season out of the whole league, that still doesn't mean he's not a top 5 QB. Big Ben was not even in the top 10 quarterbacks in a lot of stats in '08. Would you have said he's not a top 10 QB?

    And way to ignore all my other points. Seems like you just want to ignore everything that doesn't fit your argument.

    Finally, as far as what "guidelines" I'm using - again, are you stupid? I've made that clear a lot of times. I'm using the whole package: rating, %, YPA, wins, playoffs, etc.
    Steel Torch - I'm certainly interested in a good debate - however I'm not interested in your line of name calling - perhaps we don't agree, perhaps I'm not quite sure where you're coming from - but to insult me (being called a Hypocrite or Stupid) just because we disagree is again something I'm not interested in.

    Perhaps it would be easiest if you listed who you think are the Top 5 Quarterbacks in the league at this time.

    Statistically (and in my opinion) I can name 7 or 8 quarterbacks that I think would be an improvement over Kurt Warner as the Cardinals Quarterback - and that seems to be where our disagreement stems from.


    L.B.

  5. #45
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonbull
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    Okay, first off, when someone says top 5 QB of "all time", they usually mean as in the history of football. You said top 5 QB of "all time". What I'm talking about are QB's who are currently active in the league today. And no, I'm not JUST using his stats from "10 years ago" I'm using his entire career - and even now, he's a very productive QB. I've backed that fact up many times. I even point to his playoff success from LAST YEAR, yet you still bring up this "10 years ago" stuff over and over. So tell me: are you deliberately trying to be difficult, or are you just stupid?

    Secondly, I stand by what I said. I said you have to judge a QB by the whole picture. I never said you have to judge him based off of 2009 stats alone. While he may not have had the best 2009 season out of the whole league, that still doesn't mean he's not a top 5 QB. Big Ben was not even in the top 10 quarterbacks in a lot of stats in '08. Would you have said he's not a top 10 QB?

    And way to ignore all my other points. Seems like you just want to ignore everything that doesn't fit your argument.

    Finally, as far as what "guidelines" I'm using - again, are you stupid? I've made that clear a lot of times. I'm using the whole package: rating, %, YPA, wins, playoffs, etc.
    Steel Torch - I'm certainly interested in a good debate - however I'm not interested in your line of name calling - perhaps we don't agree, perhaps I'm not quite sure where you're coming from - but to insult me (being called a Hypocrite or Stupid) just because we disagree is again something I'm not interested in.

    Perhaps it would be easiest if you listed who you think are the Top 5 Quarterbacks in the league at this time.

    Statistically (and in my opinion) I can name 7 or 8 quarterbacks that I think would be an improvement over Kurt Warner as the Cardinals Quarterback - and that seems to be where our disagreement stems from.


    L.B.
    *sigh* Sorry about the namecalling, I can get pretty emotional debates, as you can see. :P But the reason I was angry in this one was because it seemed as though you were either ignoring or misconstruing everything that I said.

    As far as top 5, that's fairly easy. In this order:

    1. Peyton Manning
    2. Drew Brees
    3. Kurt Warner
    4. Ben Roethlisberger
    5. Brett Favre (vomits)

    Even though I wanted to give the last spot to Aaron Rogers, I have to hold off until he gets at least one post-season win. I'm not going to rank him the top five based off two seasons, and certainly not until he goes further. I know he can, I'm just waiting for him to do it.

    Now who would your top five be?

    Matt Schaub? Please. Tony Romo? The guy is an epic choker. The only one I may even consider adding to the list is Tom Brady because he quite recently set new records and is the only one, aside from Ben, with multiple SB wins. Kurt Warner however is the only one out of Schaub, Rogers, Romo, or Rivers who has made it to the SB in recent memory.

    As far as Warner being surrounded by talent - please, don't try to pull that one. Of course Warner's had talent to work with, but you act as though Manning, Brees, Brady, and even Big Ben have had to work with scrubs. Trying to claim that Warner's had "more" talent to work with is pure speculation, nothing more. Fact is, all of those QB's have had great talent to work with. It's called being a team. And did it ever occur to you that maybe one reason that those receivers did look so good was also because they had Warner throwing to them? You need both a good QB and good receivers to make a truly effective offense.

  6. #46

    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Steel Torch - I seriously can't believe you don't have Tom Brady as a Top 5 QB in this league.

    Statistically in 2009 Tom Brady was a better Quarterback than Kurt Warner - in Passing Yards / Passer Rating / Passing TD's....and even in their careers Tom Brady has been a much better Quarterback - let's not forget Kurt Warner has lost more Super Bowls than any other active QB.

    Tom Brady has more Super Bowl victories than any other active QB in the league - including one over Kurt Warner's Rams.

    Outside of your own opinion there isn't any category (that I'm aware of) where Kurt Warner is a better QB than Tom Brady - in my opinion that's absurd.

    In regards to Wide Receiving talent - I think Fitzgerald / Boldin and Breaston make up one of the best WR tandems in the NFL - as you said without giving another Quarterback (like Ben) an equal chance to work with them it is mostly speculation as to how much influence the Quarterback has - however I think if you polled the message board most fans would put Arizona's group as one of the top groups (however Fitz is from Pittsburgh U.)

    To respond to your question here at the Quarterbacks that if you put them on the Cardinals right now I believe they would be better than Kurt Warner

    In no particular order:

    Peyton Manning
    Tom Brady
    Brett Favre
    Drew Brees
    Ben Roethlisberger
    Matt Schaub
    Aaron Rodgers
    Philip Rivers

    In my opinion these guys are better players right now - and statistically they are better players right now -

    Again to me it's now far more surprising that you have Tom Brady NOT on the Top 5!

    Regardless - he's now retired and we'll definitely see how Whizenhunt will handle the situation - (which of course was the orginal concept to this thread).

    L.B.

  7. #47
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonbull
    Steel Torch - I seriously can't believe you don't have Tom Brady as a Top 5 QB in this league.

    Statistically in 2009 Tom Brady was a better Quarterback than Kurt Warner - in Passing Yards / Passer Rating / Passing TD's....and even in their careers Tom Brady has been a much better Quarterback - let's not forget Kurt Warner has lost more Super Bowls than any other active QB.

    Tom Brady has more Super Bowl victories than any other active QB in the league - including one over Kurt Warner's Rams.

    Outside of your own opinion there isn't any category (that I'm aware of) where Kurt Warner is a better QB than Tom Brady - in my opinion that's absurd.

    In regards to Wide Receiving talent - I think Fitzgerald / Boldin and Breaston make up one of the best WR tandems in the NFL - as you said without giving another Quarterback (like Ben) an equal chance to work with them it is mostly speculation as to how much influence the Quarterback has - however I think if you polled the message board most fans would put Arizona's group as one of the top groups (however Fitz is from Pittsburgh U.)

    To respond to your question here at the Quarterbacks that if you put them on the Cardinals right now I believe they would be better than Kurt Warner

    In no particular order:

    Peyton Manning
    Tom Brady
    Brett Favre
    Drew Brees
    Ben Roethlisberger
    Matt Schaub
    Aaron Rodgers
    Philip Rivers

    In my opinion these guys are better players right now - and statistically they are better players right now -

    Again to me it's now far more surprising that you have Tom Brady NOT on the Top 5!

    Regardless - he's now retired and we'll definitely see how Whizenhunt will handle the situation - (which of course was the orginal concept to this thread).

    L.B.
    Wow....I cannot believe you just posted this. First off, did you seriously use Superbowl losses as a criteria for judging a QB? Really? But you still rank QBs higher who never even sniffed the Superbowl???

    Secondly, there you go again. This is the reason why I got angry in the first place and called you stupid. How many times do I have to mention we're not going by '09 alone here? How many times? Yet you keep pointing to stats from just ONE SEASON. I seriously don't know if you're just being difficult or if you really are just ignoring everything I'm posting. Seriously, this is a waste of my time.

    Why do I not have Tom Brady as top five? He'd probably come in at 6, that's for sure. But if yo uask why, once you took away the cameras and his phenomenal offensive talent, Brady became a much more human quarterback. And if you ask what statistical categories Warner is better at, that's not hard. How about rating, completion %, YPA? Three pretty significant statistical categories right there.

    And seriously...Matt Schuab? You're ranking Matt Schuab over Warner? The guy hasn't won jack yet! And Phillip Rivers? Mr. Chokesalot? And if Aaron Rogers had more experience, I'd concede, but the guy's only played in 2 seasons and has yet to win a playoff game! As for the rest of your post about "offensive talent", it's all pure concture. I'm sorry, that's not going to fly here. Not when other QBs today are also surrounded by a lot of talent.

    That's all I'll say. This debate is pointless anyway. Good day to you, sir.

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