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Thread: If Kurt Warner Retires...

  1. #31
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Warner has the 3 highest passing yards in SB's...

    The guy is a beast.. and if he comes back and they shore up the D we may meet again next year.

    It's almost like both DB coaching staffs got the memo to play prevent all game to let other teams in.

  2. #32

    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz
    I disagree Lonbull... Kurt Warner is definitely a top 10 QB in the NFL... He is top 5 actually.
    Feltdizz - Top 10 is very possible - top 5 = you on crack.

    Consider that Warner has three very solid WR's - in fact one of them Larry Fitzgerald is a top 3 / 4 WR.

    Now compare the offense talent that Warner has too....

    Brett Favre - who had better numbers this season
    Matt Schaub - who had better numbers this season
    Aaron Rodgers - who had better numbers this season
    Peyton Manning -
    Tom Brady -
    Drew Brees -
    Philip Rivers -

    Even Tony Romo had a better season this year than Kurt Warner (see Passer Rating this season).

    And I think I'm forgetting someone....hmmm.... oh well

    Sorry kids - Warner has more talent at the WR and running backs than most of these guys and (this season) he didn't produce. Switch any of these guys with Warner and I believe the Cardinals would be better and Warner's new team would be worse.

    Was he a top 5 ten years ago? Probably - but that was ten years ago and of course that was when he was surrounded by great talent - seems many of you are forgetting that as soon as that talented thinned - Warner was benched by the Rams and then let go. He went to the Giants and sucked. The only reason he got a shot with the Cardinals is because Leinart wouldn't step up.

    I still respect the guy - I certainly was still concerned at the end of the last Super Bowl, but there's no way he's a top 5 QB at the end of 2009/2010.

    And there is certainly no way he's a Top 5 QB of all time.

    L.B.

  3. #33
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    You do realize that both the Rams and Cardinals - historically bad teams - have both gone to the Superbowl with Warner at the helm? By the way, he has a .750 record in the playoffs. That's second only to Big Ben and Tom Brady among active QBs. He was also a league MVP twice. As far as the talent around him, yeah, it's true he's had talent to work with. But even great wide receivers need a great quarterback to make their production truly stand out. Would you say Peyton Manning was nothing without Marvin Harrison? Or that Ben wouldn't be good without Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes? Do you see now why that argument doesn't work here?

    And the Cardinals had almost the same personnel in '07 - including Larry Fitzgerald - but didn't even muster a .500 record. The year after, with Warner as the starter, they go to the Superbowl. Not a coincidence.

    If you want to talk stats, we can do that too. He has a career rating of 93.7. That's better than Ben Roethlisberger, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees. He has the second-best career completion percentage in history (65.5%), and a career YPA of 7.9 - again, top 10 in NFL history.

    So yeah, Warner = top 5 QB. :P

  4. #34

    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    You do realize that both the Rams and Cardinals - historically bad teams - have both gone to the Superbowl with Warner at the helm?
    True - however if he was so good why was he eventually benched in St. Louis, and sucked in New York - is it because he went from stellar surrounding talent to mediocre surrounding talent - why else would such a Top 5 QB (in your terms) have such problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    By the way, he has a .750 record in the playoffs. That's second only to Big Ben and Tom Brady among active QBs. He was also a league MVP twice.
    Was he a top 5 QB ten years ago when he was MVP twice in the league - yeah probably. But that was ten years ago. Now (end of 2009) he's in the top 1/3rd, and probably no higher.

    If you're saying he's a Top 5 QB in NFL history....that's absurd considering his lack of overall production. If you're just going to use a few seasons to justify best of all time - we could probably do that with Kordell Stewart or Tommy Maddox.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    As far as the talent around him, yeah, it's true he's had talent to work with. But even great wide receivers need a great quarterback to make their production truly stand out. Would you say Peyton Manning was nothing without Marvin Harrison? Or that Ben wouldn't be good without Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes? Do you see now why that argument doesn't work here?
    The talent he had surrounding him with the Rams and the WR's he has with the Cardinals are better than what Peyton Manning has now - and certainly better than what Ben Roethlisberger has now (although Michael Wallace could change that). But again - I feel very confident that if you put Ben or Peyton on that Arizona squad - Arizona would be a better team.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    And the Cardinals had almost the same personnel in '07 - including Larry Fitzgerald - but didn't even muster a .500 record. The year after, with Warner as the starter, they go to the Superbowl. Not a coincidence.
    In 2007 Warner started 11 games for the Cardinals and his record was 5-6. Leinart started 5 games that year and was 3-2. The Cardinals (obviously) went 8-8 that season with Warner starting the bulk of the games. The following year they went 9-7 (just 1 game better in the regular season).

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    If you want to talk stats, we can do that too. He has a career rating of 93.7. That's better than Ben Roethlisberger, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees. He has the second-best career completion percentage in history (65.5%), and a career YPA of 7.9 - again, top 10 in NFL history.

    So yeah, Warner = top 5 QB. :P
    Interesting that you're missing a number of key stats -

    How about Passes Completed - 26th overall

    Kurt Warner is 4th in Active QB's with Interceptions - However he's started less games then Matt Hasselbeck, Drew Brees, and consider that Donovan McNabb has more TD's and Less INT's than Warner.

    If we're going strictly on "Career Passer Rating" than Kurt Warner STILL doesn't make the Top 5 list - as he's currently behind Aaron Rodgers, Steve Young, Philip Rivers, TONY ROMO, and Peyton Manning.

    He's in the TOP 3 for Active QB's with most fumbles - behind Favre who's started in nearly 164 more games than Warner, and Kerry Collins who's started in nearly 60 more games than Warner.

    In 2002 - Kurt Warner went 0-6 with the Rams coming off of a Super Bowl, he was replaced by Marc Bulger who in turn went 18-4 with the same team (in 2002 and 2003).

    Wind the clock back to 2001 - you certainly would have a solid arguement for Warner being a top 5 QB in the league - but certainly not top 5 all-time.

    L.B.

  5. #35
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonbull
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    You do realize that both the Rams and Cardinals - historically bad teams - have both gone to the Superbowl with Warner at the helm?
    True - however if he was so good why was he eventually benched in St. Louis, and sucked in New York - is it because he went from stellar surrounding talent to mediocre surrounding talent - why else would such a Top 5 QB (in your terms) have such problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    By the way, he has a .750 record in the playoffs. That's second only to Big Ben and Tom Brady among active QBs. He was also a league MVP twice.
    Was he a top 5 QB ten years ago when he was MVP twice in the league - yeah probably. But that was ten years ago. Now (end of 2009) he's in the top 1/3rd, and probably no higher.

    If you're saying he's a Top 5 QB in NFL history....that's absurd considering his lack of overall production. If you're just going to use a few seasons to justify best of all time - we could probably do that with Kordell Stewart or Tommy Maddox.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    As far as the talent around him, yeah, it's true he's had talent to work with. But even great wide receivers need a great quarterback to make their production truly stand out. Would you say Peyton Manning was nothing without Marvin Harrison? Or that Ben wouldn't be good without Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes? Do you see now why that argument doesn't work here?
    The talent he had surrounding him with the Rams and the WR's he has with the Cardinals are better than what Peyton Manning has now - and certainly better than what Ben Roethlisberger has now (although Michael Wallace could change that). But again - I feel very confident that if you put Ben or Peyton on that Arizona squad - Arizona would be a better team.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    And the Cardinals had almost the same personnel in '07 - including Larry Fitzgerald - but didn't even muster a .500 record. The year after, with Warner as the starter, they go to the Superbowl. Not a coincidence.
    In 2007 Warner started 11 games for the Cardinals and his record was 5-6. Leinart started 5 games that year and was 3-2. The Cardinals (obviously) went 8-8 that season with Warner starting the bulk of the games. The following year they went 9-7 (just 1 game better in the regular season).

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    If you want to talk stats, we can do that too. He has a career rating of 93.7. That's better than Ben Roethlisberger, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees. He has the second-best career completion percentage in history (65.5%), and a career YPA of 7.9 - again, top 10 in NFL history.

    So yeah, Warner = top 5 QB. :P
    Interesting that you're missing a number of key stats -

    How about Passes Completed - 26th overall

    Kurt Warner is 4th in Active QB's with Interceptions - However he's started less games then Matt Hasselbeck, Drew Brees, and consider that Donovan McNabb has more TD's and Less INT's than Warner.

    If we're going strictly on "Career Passer Rating" than Kurt Warner STILL doesn't make the Top 5 list - as he's currently behind Aaron Rodgers, Steve Young, Philip Rivers, TONY ROMO, and Peyton Manning.

    He's in the TOP 3 for Active QB's with most fumbles - behind Favre who's started in nearly 164 more games than Warner, and Kerry Collins who's started in nearly 60 more games than Warner.

    In 2002 - Kurt Warner went 0-6 with the Rams coming off of a Super Bowl, he was replaced by Marc Bulger who in turn went 18-4 with the same team (in 2002 and 2003).

    Wind the clock back to 2001 - you certainly would have a solid arguement for Warner being a top 5 QB in the league - but certainly not top 5 all-time.

    L.B.
    *sigh* I hate it when people split up quotes. But okay, fine.

    1. Yeah, he had a bad couple years in St. Louis. That's it. Every quarterback has had bad seasons - even Tom Brady and Big Ben. But he was never given a chance to improve. As far as his "outright sucking" in New York, I don't see how you can even say that. He finished the season with 62.8%, 7.4 YPA, and a 86.5 rating. Maybe not stellar, but he certainly didn't "suck". Since then, he hasn't had a season with a rating below 85. In fact, he's had only one truly bad season. In '03, he only played in two games, and '98 was his rookie season, where he only played in one. Even if you count all of his seasons, the good ones still vastly outnumber the bad ones.

    2. What do you mean "lack of overall production"? He's one of the most productive QB's in the league. And yes, he has won a Superbowl, so you can't say he's never won in the big games. And no, I'm using his entire career numbers as my guidelines. Last time I checked, YOU were the one who was trying to judge Warner based off 2009 alone. Hypocrite, much?

    3. No, his record was 7-6 if you count the games where he attempted at least 20 passes. He still was a factor in some of those those wins even though he wasn't the official starter. You can't count the game where they lost against Carolina - he attempted 2 passes in that one. Even then, the records dont' tell the whole story. he finished with a rating of 89.8, 62.3%, 7.6 YPA 27 TD's and 17 int's - way better than Leinart, who finished with a 61.9 rating, 53.6%, 5.8 YPA, 2 TD's and 4 int's.

    4. Since when do "passes completed" alone matter? All they're really useful for are telling us how many times a QB threw the ball. Please, save that crap for someone else. As for Aaron Rodgers, he has started in only 2 seasons, and last time I checked, Warner beat him in the playoffs, and still has a better career YPA and completion %. Wait a few years before crowning Rodgers a better QB.

    5. You're just cherry-picking stats. I never said we're going off of career rating alone. You're looking at each individual stat and trying to say because 'so and so' has a better [insert single stat here], that must mean he's better. Nope. We're looking at the whole package here, Shirley. Sure, Romo may have a better career rating - but how many Lombardis does he have? How does he fare in the post-season? No comparison. Give me Warner over Tony Romo or Hasselback any day.

    6. So I say again - Warner = top 5.


    By the way, I never said he was top 5 of all time - I said he was top 5 of QB's in the league today. Stop putting words in my mouth.

  6. #36
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    McNabb is a great QB.. but you can't use his low INT stat against Warner. He misses way too many easy underneath routes because he throws in the dirt half the time because he is afraid of getting picked. He also has a ton of yards throwing screens to Westbrook.

    Warner has won a SB and put up incredibly productive numbers on his way to SB appearances. It seems as though the young QB's who have fresh stats are getting the new love while Warners career stats are swept under the rug.

    It's not like Warner had a chance in NY... They were going to Eli regardless. Warner is going to be a top 10 QB when it's all said and done IMO. There is no way a QB with his back story ends up with the 3 highest SB passing yards. He will always be in the conversation until someone knocks him off the top of the list.

  7. #37
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz
    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    I hope that doesn't happen I like Whisenhunt and hope he's successful. Larry Fitz is a class act, Whiz and Grimm served the Steelers well. I'd hate to see him crash and burn.

    Pappy
    I guess you are right... Fitz was a Panther and I have no real hate towards the guy... it's the homer fans who use him vs Tomlin that get to me...
    If he loses Warner the Cards go 2004 game manager...I was surprised Whiz passed with Leinart before the half.
    I am with the dizzmeister. I do loke Whiz, but find myself rooting against him just so I don't have to hear the blah blah overpaid janitor blah blah Rooney Rule blah blah Whiz do more with a crappy team blah blah.

    (For the record: I actually wanted Whiz for the Steelers coach.. but have moved on).
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  8. #38
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by MeetJoeGreene
    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz
    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    I hope that doesn't happen I like Whisenhunt and hope he's successful. Larry Fitz is a class act, Whiz and Grimm served the Steelers well. I'd hate to see him crash and burn.

    Pappy
    I guess you are right... Fitz was a Panther and I have no real hate towards the guy... it's the homer fans who use him vs Tomlin that get to me...
    If he loses Warner the Cards go 2004 game manager...I was surprised Whiz passed with Leinart before the half.
    I am with the dizzmeister. I do loke Whiz, but find myself rooting against him just so I don't have to hear the blah blah overpaid janitor blah blah Rooney Rule blah blah Whiz do more with a crappy team blah blah.

    (For the record: I actually wanted Whiz for the Steelers coach.. but have moved on).
    I wouldn't have minded Whiz but I wasn't surprised... same thing happened when Cowher was hired. Everyone was like "WHO?"

    On paper I think Tomlin had a better resume than Cowher when he was hired.. I think.

    Cowher didn't back Whiz either... what was that about?

  9. #39

    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    2. What do you mean "lack of overall production"? He's one of the most productive QB's in the league. And yes, he has won a Superbowl, so you can't say he's never won in the big games. And no, I'm using his entire career numbers as my guidelines. Last time I checked, YOU were the one who was trying to judge Warner based off 2009 alone. Hypocrite, much?
    Actually YOU are the one who pointed out his -

    MVP status from almost 10 years ago
    His success with the Rams almost 10 years ago.
    His Super Bowl Victory almost 10 years ago.
    His overall playoff performance from his entire career.

    All of those are things you brought up - hence why I thought you must be writing about Top 5 overall - because none of that has anything to do with 2009. And from what I'm reading you ARE using his history as the guideline for your debate.

    My original statement was that when he's been surrounded with talent (like the Cardinals now, and the Rams back in the day) he's been either very productive or (in this case) in the top 1/3rd of the league.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    By the way, I never said he was top 5 of all time - I said he was top 5 of QB's in the league today. Stop putting words in my mouth.
    Since we now both agree that the basis of the debate is how good Warner was in 2009 I'll focus solely on Kurt Warner being a Top 5 QB in 2009.

    Kurt Warner was NOT a Top 10 QB in passing yards.

    Kurt Warner was tied for 10th in Touchdowns this season (with Ben and Tony Romo).

    Kurt Warner was 10th in Passer Rating this season.

    Kurt Warner was 6th in Pass Completion %

    Kurt Warner was 7th in Passing TD %

    He's tied for 10th in how many victories his team produced.

    Again - as you can see there isn't any statistical proof that he cracks the Top 5 - in fact there isn't even a stat where he breaks the Top 5 in 2009. And I would certainly argue that he has better WR's than most QB's in the league - so it certainly isn't regarding his surrounding core.

    My question to those who are telling me he is a Top 5 QB - is what guidelines are you using?

    L.B.

  10. #40
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    Re: If Kurt Warner Retires...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonbull
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    2. What do you mean "lack of overall production"? He's one of the most productive QB's in the league. And yes, he has won a Superbowl, so you can't say he's never won in the big games. And no, I'm using his entire career numbers as my guidelines. Last time I checked, YOU were the one who was trying to judge Warner based off 2009 alone. Hypocrite, much?
    Actually YOU are the one who pointed out his -

    MVP status from almost 10 years ago
    His success with the Rams almost 10 years ago.
    His Super Bowl Victory almost 10 years ago.
    His overall playoff performance from his entire career.

    All of those are things you brought up - hence why I thought you must be writing about Top 5 overall - because none of that has anything to do with 2009. And from what I'm reading you ARE using his history as the guideline for your debate.

    My original statement was that when he's been surrounded with talent (like the Cardinals now, and the Rams back in the day) he's been either very productive or (in this case) in the top 1/3rd of the league.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelTorch
    By the way, I never said he was top 5 of all time - I said he was top 5 of QB's in the league today. Stop putting words in my mouth.
    Since we now both agree that the basis of the debate is how good Warner was in 2009 I'll focus solely on Kurt Warner being a Top 5 QB in 2009.

    Kurt Warner was NOT a Top 10 QB in passing yards.

    Kurt Warner was tied for 10th in Touchdowns this season (with Ben and Tony Romo).

    Kurt Warner was 10th in Passer Rating this season.

    Kurt Warner was 6th in Pass Completion %

    Kurt Warner was 7th in Passing TD %

    He's tied for 10th in how many victories his team produced.

    Again - as you can see there isn't any statistical proof that he cracks the Top 5 - in fact there isn't even a stat where he breaks the Top 5 in 2009. And I would certainly argue that he has better WR's than most QB's in the league - so it certainly isn't regarding his surrounding core.

    My question to those who are telling me he is a Top 5 QB - is what guidelines are you using?

    L.B.
    intangibles I guess...

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