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Thread: Really, whose fault is it?

  1. #11
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slapstick
    In the Cincy game, you can look at the Sweed drop...or the KO return and pick 6 for a TD...

    Also, I have difficulty blaming the offense for 5 losses when the Steelers led going into the 4th quarter...
    Like I just wrote.. it's easy to go back after the game is over and you know what the final score is...

    I doubt anyone points to game changing drops when we win... look at Mendenhall, he dropped a perfect TD pass... but no one is saying that "lost the game" because we won.

    I think..LOL!!!

  2. #12
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    im sorry, but in games where your saying the defense was average or above average is not very accurate....
    the viking game you say they played above average, well they gave up a ton of yards with the soft coverage and were fortunate to get 2 bounces their way....
    the first cincy game the bengals convert 2 fourth downs on the final drive all the way down the field to score the game winning touchdown
    the bears game the defense let them go down the field and win the game with a last second FG, cutler looked like peyton manning
    the chief game we give up back to back big plays in regulation and allow them to go down the field and win in OT
    the ravens, 3rd and 22,...enough said,
    raiders, they choke at the end
    packers they are downright horrible, its a miracle they only gave up 35...

    the defense was terrible, and i dont want to be the I told you so guy, but this summer I kept telling my dad and buddies that I did not like the way our defense looked towards the end of the year, i thought the titans and cardinals exposed something...

  3. #13
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JTP53609
    im sorry, but in games where your saying the defense was average or above average is not very accurate....
    the viking game you say they played outstanding, well they gave up a ton of yards with the soft coverage and were fortunate to get 2 bounces their way....
    the first cincy game the bengals convert 2 fourth downs on the final drive all the way down the field to score the game winning touchdown
    the bears game the defense let them go down the field and win the game with a last second FG, cutler looked like peyton manning
    the chief game we give up back to back big plays in regulation and allow them to go down the field and win in OT
    the ravens, 3rd and 22,...enough said,
    raiders, they choke at the end
    packers they are downright horrible, its a miracle they only gave up 35...

    the defense was terrible, and i dont want to be the I told you so guy, but this summer I kept telling my dad and buddies that I did not like the way our defense looked towards the end of the year, i thought the titans and cardinals exposed something...
    It's scary what is perceived as decent D these days.

    I'd take a William Gay INT in preseason over a FB on our roster...LOL!!!

    Joking..

    kinda...

  4. #14
    Hall of Famer Mister Pittsburgh's Avatar
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    Nice work on the number crunching. Good effort.

    Problem is, Steelers fans are accustomed to having a mediocre offense so they cut the offense slack when there is a bad performance or bad season. They are also accustomed to having a very dominant defense, so any year they are having a tough time, everything can be placed on them. Two Pro Bowlers injured, big deal, should still be dominant.
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  5. #15
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    I just look at it simple, if the Defense gives up under 300 yds of total defense than it is above average, if they give up over 400 yds than it is below average, if they give up more than 400 yds than they are bad....
    lack of turnovers and bad tackling also show off bad defenses..
    and allowing a team to drive down the field to win the game on a final possession makes a defense look horrible... (chicago, cincy, chiefs, ravens, raiders)..

    that is what does it for me, once twice i understand losing at the end, (last year the giants and colts beat us on their last drive), but this year we lost 5 games when we had the lead and our defense was on the field for the end of the game...sure the offense was erratic at times and they looked really good but then really bad, but even when we thought our Defense looked good (minnesota), we still got our butts kicked and got 2 lucky breaks our way......

  6. #16
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    To be a totally healthy, intact, supposedly high powered offense...and to go into Cleveland and kick 2 FG on the worst defense in the league, to me is unexcused. I cannot and will not get over that. The defense was missing two pro bowlers most the year. What was the offense missing?
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  7. #17
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by feltdizz
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelAbility
    Quote Originally Posted by Slapstick
    In the Cincy game, you can look at the Sweed drop...or the KO return and pick 6 for a TD...

    Also, I have difficulty blaming the offense for 5 losses when the Steelers led going into the 4th quarter...
    Those were two different games. Sweed's drop was in the 1st game, which also had a pick6 thrown by Ben. The majority of the attention was on the fact that D couldn't get a stop at the end. Without EITHER of those two O mistakes, the D getting a stop at the end would have been irrelevant. Both O and D were to blame. But the O much more so. Although, to be fair the O didn't let down on Sweed's drop due to play-calling. That was just a major brain fart by Sweed. Just picked a really bad time/place for that. Oh, yeah, the O could have closed out at the end with one first down. But conservative play-calling came to the rescue of the Bengals there.

    The KO return happened in the 2nd game.
    IF Sweed doesn't drop.. IF Ben doesn't throw the Pick 6... it doesn't change the fact we WERE winning this games before the last drive. The games were not perfect on all 3 sides of the ball in damn near every game.... but we still had the leads in these games late in the 4th.

    Sweed didn't just have a brain fart either.. he has yet to catch a wide open TD pass...
    I'm glad we benched him.

    What if Sweed makes the TD catch, we give up a KR... still lose in the fourth and Mike Wallace never gets the chance to shine? So many what if's...
    Ok, I had decided to give up on this debate, since both dead horses have been firmly embedded in the ground now. But are you hearing yourself? You are correct. It made no difference insofar as "having the lead." But it made all the difference insofar as "having an INSURMOUNTABLE lead" or a "two-score" or "three-score" lead. Geez. By this logic there is no distinction between a one point lead and 50 point lead. A lead is a lead is a lead, right?

    You can view it two ways. The offense gave us a lead. Or you can view it as the offense left us in a position where we could lose (when it otherwise should not have been).

    Furthermore, it could be argued that the points left on the table by the O and/or just given to the other team (pick6) forced the D to have to play hard at the end with the associated risk of injury affecting subsequent game performance.

    Like I said, both are to blame. In that game, the O had way more blame, IMO.

  8. #18
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Pittsburgh
    To be a totally healthy, intact, supposedly high powered offense...and to go into Cleveland and kick 2 FG on the worst defense in the league, to me is unexcused. I cannot and will not get over that. The defense was missing two pro bowlers most the year. What was the offense missing?
    Well stated. These two irrefutable points seem to just wash under the dam.

  9. #19
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    First of all kudos to steelnavy for putting the data together. I think we all know it's not the end all, be all of the discussion but it is a good starting point. Here are a few of my observations on the subject.

    1) The offense was inconsistent
    2) The defense was inconsistent
    3) The offense struggled in the red zone
    4) The defense couldn't stop Sister Mary's of the Poor in crunch time
    5) The defense couldn't get many 3 and outs so the offense always had to drive the length of the field to score a TD
    6) The kick coverage team couldn't tackle anybody so the opposing offense always had a short field to drive for a TD.

    I don't know what plays Arians called so it's real hard to evaluate him as a coordinator. The instance that makes me doubt Arians ability is the Cleveland game where we threw so many passes in a game where we should have been running. That game shows me he has a hard time adapting to different situations.

    I don't know the defensive calls either so for that reason I can't evaluate LeBeau but here is something that bothers me about some of his calls.

    In the Miami game the Dolphins had a 3rd and 3. When they line up they have a receiver wide to the left and a slot guy to the left. Ike is lined up over the receiver 10 freakin yards back and NOBODY within camera shot is lined up over the slot guy.

    At the snap the receiver runs deep down the sideline and Ike goes with him. The slot guy runs a 5 yard out and is wide open (Harrison runs to that area after the snap but isn't even close). Luckily Pat White short arms it so it is incomplete and 2 seconds later Carter (I think) comes running into the picture shaking his fist and clapping like he did something to break up the play.

    So my question is why are we running a defensive set that most NFL QBs will get a 1st down against almost all the time? This same type of situation seemed to have been repeated many times throughout the year.

    I think Arians is the coordinator most under fire because he doesn't have the track record that LeBeau has. Coordinators are in a chess match with the opposition and sometimes they guess right and sometimes they don't. LeBeau has been much more successful than most but Arians has never been known to put together a high octane offense.
    <a href=http://seahawknationblog.com/files/2011/02/roger-goodell.jpg target=_blank>http://seahawknationblog.com/files/2...er-goodell.jpg</a>

  10. #20
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    Re: Really, whose fault is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by steelnavy
    After reading how if the “haters” want BA fired, then they should also demand Lebeau’s head because the defense played worse this year, I decided to do some simple stat crunching in order to compare apples to apples and see who the good, bad and ugly really was.

    I looked at offensive and defensive production in terms of points scored versus points allowed since that ultimately decides the game. I also did the same thing with the average “points for” and “points against” for each Steeler opponent. I removed all points from interception returns, fumble returns and special team scores so that I could compare just offensive and defensive production.

    This is what I found:

    The first interesting thing I noted is that when taking into consideration only offensive scoring, the Steelers win/loss record is 10-5-1 for the season.

    In comparing how the Steelers O and D performed against the average O and D performance of each opponent, the units fell out as follows over the sixteen game season:

    Performance......... Off........ Def
    Well Above Avg.... 2........... 5
    Above Avg........... 5........... 4
    Average.............. 4........... 3
    Below Avg........... 2........... 2
    Well Below Avg..... 3........... 2


    Note- Metrics used: Average is within two points of opponent’s mean points for or against, above or below average is within 10 points of opponent avg, and well above or well below average is greater than ten points from the mean.

    Now lets look at each game comparing offensive and defensive production only

    Titans game (W 13-10)
    PIT O 13.... Avg points scored against Titans 24.7
    PIT D 10.... Avg points scored by Titans 20.4

    Steelers defense saves the day versus woeful effort by the offense. Win because of the Defense.

    Chicago game (L 17-14)
    PIT O 14.... Avg points scored against Bears 23.5
    PIT D 17.... Avg points scored by Bears 18.9

    The D holds their own but Steelers lose due to well below avg performance by the O. Loss hangs on Offense.

    Cincinnati game (L 23-20)
    PIT O 20.... Avg points scored against Bungals 17.4
    PIT D 17.... Avg points scored by Bungals 17.4

    Both the D and O held their own, but the O gave up an INT for a TD to lose the game. Loss hangs on Offense.

    San Diego game (W 38-2
    PIT O 38.... Avg points scored against SD 19.1
    PIT D 21.... Avg points scored by SD 26.1

    Both squads performed well (the O really kicked butt). Both sides earn the win.

    Detroit game (W 28-20)
    PIT O 28.... Avg points scored against Detroit 29.0
    PIT D 13.... Avg points scored by Detroit 14.9

    Both squads played about average but the O gave up 7 on an INT for a TD to make the game closer than it should have been. Both sides earn the win.

    Cleveland game (W 27-14)
    PIT O 27.... Avg points scored against Browns 21.8
    PIT D 07.... Avg points scored by Browns 15.3

    Both squads performed above average and both earn the win.

    Minnesota (W 27-17)
    PIT O 13.... Avg points scored against Vikings 17.7
    PIT D 14.... Avg points scored by Vikings 28.1

    D played well above average and O played below average. The D saved the day with two fumble recoveries for TDs. Win because of the Defense.

    Denver (W 28-10)
    PIT O 21.... Avg points scored against Broncs 18.1
    PIT D 03.... Avg points scored by Broncs 18.8

    D played well above average and the O played above average. Both earned the win.

    Cincinnati (L 18-12)
    PIT O 12.... Avg points scored against Bungles 17.4
    PIT D 12.... Avg points scored by Bungles 17.4

    O performed below average and D performed above average. The Offense and Special Teams earned this loss.

    Kansas City (L24-27)
    PIT O 24.... Avg points scored against KC 24.3
    PIT D 20.... Avg points scored by KC 16.9

    The O played average and the D played below average. Loss is pinned on the D and ST.

    Baltimore (L 20-17)
    PIT O 17.... Avg points scored against Ravens 15.4
    PIT D 20.... Avg points scored by Ravens 30.3

    While the D delivered a slightly above average performance, the average play of the O costs the game.

    Raiders (L 27-24)
    PIT O 24.... Avg points scored against Raiders 23.1
    PIT D 27.... Avg points scored by Raiders 12.3

    The O played average and the D played well below average. D responsible for the loss.

    Cleveland (L 13-6)
    PIT O 06.... Avg points scored against Browns 21.8
    PIT D 13.... Avg points scored by Browns 15.3

    The D performed above average and the O performed well below average. The O is responsible for this embarrassing loss.

    Green Bay (W37-36)
    PIT O 37.... Avg points scored against GB 17.3
    PIT D 36.... Avg points scored by GB 26.9

    O performed well above average and the D played well below average. O saved the day.

    Baltimore (W23-20)
    PIT O 23.... Avg points scored against Ravens 15.4
    PIT D 20.... Avg points scored by Ravens 30.3

    Both O and D performed above average. That and a little luck wins this one.

    Miami (W 30-24)
    PIT O 30.... Avg points scored against Dolphins 23.3
    PIT D 24.... Avg points scored by Dolphins 20.9

    O delivers above average performance and D is below average. O earns the win.


    Looking at the Steeler’s nine wins, the D and O earned five wins as a team, and each earned two wins despite the poor performance of the other.

    Looking at the Steelers seven losses, the D was directly responsible for two of them and the O was responsible for five.

    In general, the D performed better than the O, and did it minus two star defensive players (Polamalu and Smith). If the Offense lost two of their brightest stars for the season, how good would have they been then?

    Finally, I looked at scoring per Qtr:

    ...............1st Qtr...2nd Qtr...3rd Qtr...4th Qtr... OT
    Offense......81.........119........61.........83.. ........3 347
    Defense.....39..........61.........47.........121. ........6 274


    The D was obviously poor in the 4th qtr. Other than that, they performed well.

    The D has its worst year in awhile and it still had better stats than the O.

    Understanding that the game is a lot more complicated than what is presented, the stats do provide a way to compare results of the two units.
    Nice Stats....

    But i have just one question for you...
    Do you think Steelers win a game this season if Big Ben throws for 34 yards and 1 INT???

    Steelers D is incapable of getting turnovers. DBs outright suck. Ike taylor at best is No.2 CB. Steelers D play 10 yard cushion and prevent D.

    Aaron Smith will be a year older next season. I won't be surprised if he retires.

    Only player who can make things happen is Troy.

    Get ready to see some mediocre Steelers D next season. Just hope that Offense clicks in 2010 else next year could be worse.

    Steelers in 2010 can go as far as Big Ben takes them.
    Steelers Draft
    Rd 1: Mike Evans - WR
    Rd 2: Kyle Van Noy - ILB/OLB
    Rd 3c: Philip Gaines - CB
    Rd 4: Taylor Hart - DE
    Rd 5: Justin Ellis - DT
    Rd 5c:Xavier Grimble -TE

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