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Thread: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

  1. #11
    Legend papillon's Avatar
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    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Smartmonies
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigawatts
    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo
    Quote Originally Posted by birtikidis
    MSM i could care less who he threw the ball to as long as he checked down to his other options whether it be 3, 4, or 5 on the passing tree. too often he only looks at the first or second option on that tree and tries to force it. but to play devils advocate, there were few times where he had the time to make that progression, so, all things considered you can't complain.
    Ben tries to force the downfield play versus settling for a much shorter positive gain.


    Blast me if you want, but I'm going to use soccer as a comparison here.

    When I was on the field, I always checked down field for an open man, or an open space.

    When the space was occupied by a defender, usually I'd make a safe pass to my support
    rather than risk turning the ball over down field. The key was to keep possession until
    you could work your way towards the goal.

    I'd like to see Ben "keep possession" by attempting the short passes to the open man
    rather than risk an interception down field when the coverage is there.
    He only had 11 picks last year Jig.
    Sacks on 3rd are almost as damaging as an interception. I think Jig's point was that if Ben moves the chains from 3rd to 1st even if the pass only covers 5 yards and his YPA goes down, it's still a big play in a football game. You get to keep "possession" of the ball and don't have to give it to the other team, so that, they can try to score.

    It's okay if Ben's stats suffer for the good of the team.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ra'Shede Hageman - DE
    2.47) Jason Verrett - CB
    3.97) CJ Fiedorowicz - TE
    4.114) Brandon Coleman - WR
    5.145) Lamin Barrow - ILB
    5.173) Terrance Mitchell - CB
    6.176)
    7.207) Jay Bromley - DT
    7.215)

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  2. #12

    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Smartmonies
    2007 TOM BRADY

    PASSNG ATTEMPTS = 578 PASSES TO RB'S = 58
    PERCENTAGES OF PASSES TO RB'S = 10%

    200Y PEYTON MANNING

    PASSING ATTEMPTS = 515
    PASSES TO RB'S = 57
    PERCENTAGE OF PASSES T0 RB'S = 11%

    2007 ROETHLISBERGER

    PASSING ATTEMPTS = 404
    PASSES TP RB'S = 51
    PERCENTAGE OF PASSES TO RB'S = 12%

    Do you have the number of first downs made, total yards and YPA for those passes. It just seems and it could be my imagination that when Ben uses a RB as a check down not many yards are made or first downs garnered.

    Pappy
    Parker
    7 1st downs
    a long of 22
    164 yards total receiving

    Davenport
    6 1st downs
    10 Yards Per reception
    long of 32
    184 yards

    Carey D

    2 1st downs
    4 yards per reception
    long of 10 yards
    49 yards

  3. #13
    Legend papillon's Avatar
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    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    [quote=Mr Smartmonies]
    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Smartmonies":fg4fbzkk
    2007 TOM BRADY

    PASSNG ATTEMPTS = 578 PASSES TO RB'S = 58
    PERCENTAGES OF PASSES TO RB'S = 10%

    200Y PEYTON MANNING

    PASSING ATTEMPTS = 515
    PASSES TO RB'S = 57
    PERCENTAGE OF PASSES T0 RB'S = 11%

    2007 ROETHLISBERGER

    PASSING ATTEMPTS = 404
    PASSES TP RB'S = 51
    PERCENTAGE OF PASSES TO RB'S = 12%

    Do you have the number of first downs made, total yards and YPA for those passes. It just seems and it could be my imagination that when Ben uses a RB as a check down not many yards are made or first downs garnered.

    Pappy
    Parker
    7 1st downs
    a long of 22
    164 yards total receiving

    Davenport
    6 1st downs
    10 Yards Per reception
    long of 32
    184 yards

    Carey D

    2 1st downs
    4 yards per reception
    long of 10 yards
    49 yards[/quote:fg4fbzkk]

    No, I meant of the passes that the 3 QBs threw to their RBs:

    What percentage of those throws ended up being first downs?
    How many total yards were the completions good for?
    What was each QBs YPA for those passes thrown to RBs.
    It would also be interesting to see the breakout of the number completions by down.

    What I was saying was that it seems that Manning's and Brady's completions to RBs were more productive that Ben's. It seems, (or, the stats could prove me wrong) that Ben threw to RBs out of necessity, not in an attempt to allow the back to make a play (a check down).

    Pappy


    1.15) Ra'Shede Hageman - DE
    2.47) Jason Verrett - CB
    3.97) CJ Fiedorowicz - TE
    4.114) Brandon Coleman - WR
    5.145) Lamin Barrow - ILB
    5.173) Terrance Mitchell - CB
    6.176)
    7.207) Jay Bromley - DT
    7.215)

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  4. #14

    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Smartmonies
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigawatts
    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo
    Quote Originally Posted by birtikidis
    MSM i could care less who he threw the ball to as long as he checked down to his other options whether it be 3, 4, or 5 on the passing tree. too often he only looks at the first or second option on that tree and tries to force it. but to play devils advocate, there were few times where he had the time to make that progression, so, all things considered you can't complain.
    Ben tries to force the downfield play versus settling for a much shorter positive gain.


    Blast me if you want, but I'm going to use soccer as a comparison here.

    When I was on the field, I always checked down field for an open man, or an open space.

    When the space was occupied by a defender, usually I'd make a safe pass to my support
    rather than risk turning the ball over down field. The key was to keep possession until
    you could work your way towards the goal.

    I'd like to see Ben "keep possession" by attempting the short passes to the open man
    rather than risk an interception down field when the coverage is there.
    He only had 11 picks last year Jig.
    Sacks on 3rd are almost as damaging as an interception. I think Jig's point was that if Ben moves the chains from 3rd to 1st even if the pass only covers 5 yards and his YPA goes down, it's still a big play in a football game. You get to keep "possession" of the ball and don't have to give it to the other team, so that, they can try to score.

    It's okay if Ben's stats suffer for the good of the team.

    Pappy
    Your YPA isn't going to go down by completing a 5 yard pass. Your YPA goes down by having a lot of incompletions. Nothing good comes from a QB lowering his YPA.


    Over half of the steelers third downs was for 3rd and 7 yards to go or more. That
    was the 6th highest Percentage in the league. The steelers ran theball on 1st and 2nd down more then all but 2 teams in the league. Consistently putting your QB in third and long , will allow opposing defenses to just tee off on him. The good news is Ben was spectacular on 3rd and long. A 129% passer rating on 3rd and 8-10.

  5. #15

    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    [quote=papillon]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Smartmonies
    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Smartmonies":2bqimg0w
    2007 TOM BRADY

    PASSNG ATTEMPTS = 578 PASSES TO RB'S = 58
    PERCENTAGES OF PASSES TO RB'S = 10%

    200Y PEYTON MANNING

    PASSING ATTEMPTS = 515
    PASSES TO RB'S = 57
    PERCENTAGE OF PASSES T0 RB'S = 11%

    2007 ROETHLISBERGER

    PASSING ATTEMPTS = 404
    PASSES TP RB'S = 51
    PERCENTAGE OF PASSES TO RB'S = 12%

    Do you have the number of first downs made, total yards and YPA for those passes. It just seems and it could be my imagination that when Ben uses a RB as a check down not many yards are made or first downs garnered.

    Pappy
    Parker
    7 1st downs
    a long of 22
    164 yards total receiving

    Davenport
    6 1st downs
    10 Yards Per reception
    long of 32
    184 yards

    Carey D

    2 1st downs
    4 yards per reception
    long of 10 yards
    49 yards
    No, I meant of the passes that the 3 QBs threw to their RBs:

    What percentage of those throws ended up being first downs?
    How many total yards were the completions good for?
    What was each QBs YPA for those passes thrown to RBs.
    It would also be interesting to see the breakout of the number completions by down.

    What I was saying was that it seems that Manning's and Brady's completions to RBs were more productive that Ben's. It seems, (or, the stats could prove me wrong) that Ben threw to RBs out of necessity, not in an attempt to allow the back to make a play (a check down).

    Pappy[/quote:2bqimg0w]

    Brady's Completions were more productive because of 1 main reason. Randy Moss.
    Brady said that himself. He said "I could tell in the Jets game we had something special
    when I threw a little dump off pass to the RB and it went for like 18 yards. I was like , woo, that's not supposed to work that good."

    Moss Stretched the field and Kevin Faulk is a big time, well paid Pass receiving threat.

  6. #16
    Bob
    Guest

    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    Quote Originally Posted by birtikidis
    MSM i could care less who he threw the ball to as long as he checked down to his other options whether it be 3, 4, or 5 on the passing tree. too often he only looks at the first or second option on that tree and tries to force it. but to play devils advocate, there were few times where he had the time to make that progression, so, all things considered you can't complain.
    I a bit confused by what you're saying. Are you talking about a 3, 4, or a 5 route on a passing tree or the option the receivers are in the progression?

    Reason being is you speak about the passing tree in the bolded part above then in the next sentence, in the underlined part, you speak about which option that receiver is.

    I bring this up b/c the route numbers are that, a number given to a specific route, but that has a different meaning as to who the primary, 2nd option, 3rd option in the progression.

    Not trying to pick a fight, but wanted to clarify what you are speaking in reference to b/c as I read that it almost seems like a RB on a 5 route would be option 5 in the progression which he is not, it simply means he is running a flag at say 7 yards from the LOS b/c he is a RB and him breaking to the flag at 15 is out of the question unless you have 2 months to throw the ball. Maybe I'm just mis-reading what you typed...which would not be out of the norm for me LOL!

  7. #17
    Legend papillon's Avatar
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    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    Quote Originally Posted by MSM
    Your YPA isn't going to go down by completing a 5 yard pass. Your YPA goes down by having a lot of incompletions. Nothing good comes from a QB lowering his YPA.


    Over half of the steelers third downs was for 3rd and 7 yards to go or more. That
    was the 6th highest Percentage in the league. The steelers ran theball on 1st and 2nd down more then all but 2 teams in the league. Consistently putting your QB in third and long , will allow opposing defenses to just tee off on him. The good news is Ben was spectacular on 3rd and long. A 129% passer rating on 3rd and 8-10.
    Your YPA has to go down even if you're completing all of your passes, but, they are for 5 yards. Ben could be 20/20 for 100 yards and his YPA would be 5 yards. It's a combination of incompletes and yards gained per completion that affect the YPA. Unless, I'm not calculating YPA correctly.

    If Ben dumps the ball off out of necessity rather than play design to a RB and he only gains a few yards rather than the 18 that Faulk gained Ben's YPA will go down.

    I'm only trying to determine the effectiveness of the passes to the RBs, since, Ben actually used them more often based on percentage. There has to be a reason it seems that the Pats and Colts are more productive with their passing attack to RBs than the Steelers, particularly, as a percentage, Ben used them more.

    Don't you think?

    Pappy


    1.15) Ra'Shede Hageman - DE
    2.47) Jason Verrett - CB
    3.97) CJ Fiedorowicz - TE
    4.114) Brandon Coleman - WR
    5.145) Lamin Barrow - ILB
    5.173) Terrance Mitchell - CB
    6.176)
    7.207) Jay Bromley - DT
    7.215)

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

  8. #18
    Pro Bowler Jigawatts's Avatar
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    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Smartmonies
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigawatts
    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo
    Quote Originally Posted by birtikidis
    MSM i could care less who he threw the ball to as long as he checked down to his other options whether it be 3, 4, or 5 on the passing tree. too often he only looks at the first or second option on that tree and tries to force it. but to play devils advocate, there were few times where he had the time to make that progression, so, all things considered you can't complain.
    Ben tries to force the downfield play versus settling for a much shorter positive gain.


    Blast me if you want, but I'm going to use soccer as a comparison here.

    When I was on the field, I always checked down field for an open man, or an open space.

    When the space was occupied by a defender, usually I'd make a safe pass to my support
    rather than risk turning the ball over down field. The key was to keep possession until
    you could work your way towards the goal.

    I'd like to see Ben "keep possession" by attempting the short passes to the open man
    rather than risk an interception down field when the coverage is there.
    He only had 11 picks last year Jig.
    Sacks on 3rd are almost as damaging as an interception. I think Jig's point was that if Ben moves the chains from 3rd to 1st even if the pass only covers 5 yards and his YPA goes down, it's still a big play in a football game. You get to keep "possession" of the ball and don't have to give it to the other team, so that, they can try to score.

    It's okay if Ben's stats suffer for the good of the team.

    Pappy

    Yes, my point is that you keep possession by not throwing interceptions plus moving
    the chains by completing the short passes if they're there. No point of forcing something
    that's not there if you have an easy outlet.

    It's amazing that Ben's style of play only produced 11 interceptions, and that's a
    testament of how great he is. But tell me Mr. Smartmonies, since you're the stat man
    around here, how many of those interceptions were the result of Ben trying to force
    a throw into blanketing coverage and how many were the result of a great play
    by the defense?

  9. #19

    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    Quote Originally Posted by papillon
    Quote Originally Posted by MSM
    Your YPA isn't going to go down by completing a 5 yard pass. Your YPA goes down by having a lot of incompletions. Nothing good comes from a QB lowering his YPA.


    Over half of the steelers third downs was for 3rd and 7 yards to go or more. That
    was the 6th highest Percentage in the league. The steelers ran theball on 1st and 2nd down more then all but 2 teams in the league. Consistently putting your QB in third and long , will allow opposing defenses to just tee off on him. The good news is Ben was spectacular on 3rd and long. A 129% passer rating on 3rd and 8-10.
    Your YPA has to go down even if you're completing all of your passes, but, they are for 5 yards. Ben could be 20/20 for 100 yards and his YPA would be 5 yards. It's a combination of incompletes and yards gained per completion that affect the YPA. Unless, I'm not calculating YPA correctly.

    If Ben dumps the ball off out of necessity rather than play design to a RB and he only gains a few yards rather than the 18 that Faulk gained Ben's YPA will go down.

    I'm only trying to determine the effectiveness of the passes to the RBs, since, Ben actually used them more often based on percentage. There has to be a reason it seems that the Pats and Colts are more productive with their passing attack to RBs than the Steelers, particularly, as a percentage, Ben used them more.

    Don't you think?

    Pappy
    No. To answer your latest question. Patriots and Colts stretch the field which opens up the under neath stuff. Just look at how Jacksonvill played the Pats in the Playoffs last year. Welker and Faulk were having field days becuase the secondary was all over moss
    Not to mention that unfortunately you are another steeler fan (in a long line of them, no disrespect of course) ) that completely underappreciate Kevin Faulk. He is literally the best pass receiving threat out of the backfield the league currently has. Why do you think a year ago that Patriots coughed up all that money for him? I saw a study where he was graded to have the best hands of any receiver (including WR's) in the league. He's very smart. He knows how to free himself up. And he rarely has to stay into block behind that great pass blocking offensive line In new England. Edge james in his prime was a dynamic pass receiving threat. They would send him deep down the sideline to catch a pass. He was truly a special athlete.

    You also mention Ben reducing his YARds per attempt. Guess what , he has. He went from 8.9 1st two years to 7.5 and then 7.8 last two years. Does the offense really look better? No. I will say this one last time. Nothing is good about a QB's YPA coming down.
    Nothing. 32 teams last year. Of the teams that had QB's improve their average, all but 2 teams improved their record. Of the teams that saw QB's decrease their YPA, every single team had a worse record. QB's who average over 8 ypa for a season, sport a record of 51-7 in making the playoffs in that same season. Your anaology of ben going 20 for 20 at 5 yards per throw, is a bad one. Its unrealistic. That's like saying a RB wil average only 3.5 yards per carry, but he is going to get 3.5 yards on every single carry. if that were the case, that team would not pass the ball at all. The would run it every single play and be guaranteed to pick up a first down. QB's and RB's are all going ot have a swing in yards gained. Alex Smith had the worst YPa last year. But he also had the worst Completion percentage. He didn't gain the poor YPa becuase he completed a lot of 5 yard passes. He got the poor YPa becuase he had an inordinate amount of incompletions per attempts. I'm not 100% sure of what your trying to say above, but it sounds like your trying to say Ben should dump the ball off more instead of forcing the ball downfield. but i will take the 20 yard completion any day. It's not like he doesn't complete a high percentage. The Lower Ben's YPA goes, th worse this team will do. Trust me on that.

  10. #20
    Legend papillon's Avatar
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    Re: If Only Ben would pass the ball to his RB's

    I never said a dropping YPA was a good thing. All I said was that your YPA could be going down and you could be completing just as many or more passes if they don't pick up as much yardage.

    The Steelers are inefficient using the RB as a pass receiver because, they don't design plays specifically for the RB and Ben isn't good at getting them the ball with space to turn a dump off into a big play.

    The Steelers stretched the field with Holmes and Washington last year their YPC's were high and other teams had to worry about Hines in the intermediate range. There is space underneath when defending the Steelers, don't make it sound like only the Colts and Pats can stretch the field with their receivers.

    The bottom line here is that Ben can and should improve in this area of his game. With Holmes, Washington and now Sweed there will be plenty of open space underneath. We'll see how the Steelers do at using it to theor advantage.

    Pappy


    1.15) Ra'Shede Hageman - DE
    2.47) Jason Verrett - CB
    3.97) CJ Fiedorowicz - TE
    4.114) Brandon Coleman - WR
    5.145) Lamin Barrow - ILB
    5.173) Terrance Mitchell - CB
    6.176)
    7.207) Jay Bromley - DT
    7.215)

    "Before you can win a game, you have to not lose it." -- Chuck Noll

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