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Thread: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

  1. #21
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    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Smartmonies
    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy

    Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".
    So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

    That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

    So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?
    Bengals vs Bills I pick this game cause I can remember losing a bet on the Bengals.

    4th QTR (Bengals up 21 -16 start of 4TH QTR)

    9-R.Lindell kicks 75 yards from BUF 30 to CIN -5. 16-G.Holt, Touchback.
    1-10-CIN 20 (13:54) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep right to 85-C.Johnson (56-K.Ellison, 37-G.Wilson). Pass tipped at CIN 32 by K.Ellison, nearly intercepted by G.Wilson at CIN 37.
    2-10-CIN 20 (13:47) 33-K.Watson right guard to CIN 22 for 2 yards (37-G.Wilson).
    3-8-CIN 22 (13:05) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
    Larson punts

    1-10-CIN 8 (11:24) 32-R.Johnson left guard to CIN 5 for -3 yards (90-C.Kelsay).
    2-13-CIN 5 (10:46) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 82-R.Kelly to CIN 13 for 8 yards (33-J.Greer, 55-A.Crowell). Caught in flat at CIN 10.
    3-5-CIN 13 (10:0 (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
    Larson punts

    1-10-CIN 26 (5:45) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson to CIN 38 for 12 yards (55-A.Crowell). Screen, caught at CIN 27.
    1-10-CIN 38 (5:12) (No Huddle) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to 16-G.Holt [27-C.Wire]. Underthrown, receiver at CIN 48.
    2-10-CIN 38 (5:0 (No Huddle) 33-K.Watson left guard to CIN 41 for 3 yards (93-A.Hargrove, 37-G.Wilson).
    3-7-CIN 41 (4:26) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short right to 16-G.Holt (24-T.McGee). Receiver and coverage along sideline at CIN 46. Pressure on QB: A.Hargrove.
    Larson punts

    4th possession in 4th QTR , Buffalo now plays prevent

    1-10-CIN 22 (2:14) 9-C.Palmer scrambles right end pushed ob at CIN 29 for 7 yards (55-A.Crowell).
    2-3-CIN 29 (2:06) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to CIN 39 for 10 yards (93-A.Hargrove; 55-A.Crowell). Caught at CIN 36.
    Two-Minute Warning
    1-10-CIN 39 (1:59) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep left to 85-C.Johnson. CIN-85-C.Johnson was injured during the play. Removed from field on stretcher. Thrown wide of receiver at BUF 38.
    Timeout #3 by CIN at 01:53.
    2-10-CIN 39 (1:53) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle (97-J.McCargo). Pass batted at line.
    3-10-CIN 39 (1:4 (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson pushed ob at BUF 45 for 16 yards (94-A.Schobel). Screen, caught at CIN 34.
    1-10-BUF 45 (1:41) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to BUF 36 for 9 yards (25-K.Thomas, 93-A.Hargrove). Caught at BUF37.
    2-1-BUF 36 (1:21) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short right to 33-K.Watson to BUF 28 for 8 yards (55-A.Crowell).
    1-10-BUF 28 (:56) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short left to 84-T.Houshmandzadeh. Dropped, receiver in flat at BUF 22.
    2-10-BUF 28 (:51) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 27-D.Dorsey to BUF 19 for 9 yards (55-A.Crowell). Dump pass, caught at BUF 25.
    3-1-BUF 19 (:29) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 10-M.Maxwell to BUF 14 for 5 yards (33-J.Greer). Slant pattern, caught at BUF 14.
    1-10-BUF 14 (:1 9-C.Palmer spiked the ball to stop the clock.
    2-10-BUF 14 (:1 9-C.Palmer pass short left intended for 10-M.Maxwell INTERCEPTED by 25-K.Thomas at BUF 4. 25-K.Thomas to BUF 12 for 8 yards (10-M.Maxwell).

    Losman kneels.
    Great work again!!

  2. #22

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Carson Palmer has had the luxury of working with the same #1 and #2 WRs throughout his career. Ben had Hines and Plax the first year, then Hines and ARE/Wilson the second year, then Hines and Wilson the 3rd year and Hines and Holmes last year. We all agree that Hines is on the downside of his career and until we got Holmes we had no true deep threat after Plax left.

    If you want to use the excuse that it is the defenses fault they can't win games, I watched the games last year. It was the offense that has been struggling. Carson hasn't been the same since his injury.

  3. #23

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    One of the things that have truly gone with much discussion or without much scrutiny when it comes to Carson, the final 3 games of the 2006 season. Particularly the final game of 2006. Palmer only needed to win 1 game out of the final 3 to sneak into the playoffs. After losing 2 of them, he would then get the Steelers at home. The Steelers had just come off a beating agaiinst the Ravens which ended their season. Carson Palmer at home, had the steelers right where he wated them. He should have drilled Pittsburgh. Yet his offense scored only 3 points in the first 3 Quarters. He end up losing in OT. The game shouldn't have been close. The bengals were a solid Favorite in that game. Those are the kind of games that are very winnable, yet he just hasn't shown he has it. And he is coming on his 6th season now.

  4. #24

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Smartmonies
    One of the things that have truly gone with much discussion or without much scrutiny when it comes to Carson, the final 3 games of the 2006 season. Particularly the final game of 2006. Palmer only needed to win 1 game out of the final 3 to sneak into the playoffs. After losing 2 of them, he would then get the Steelers at home. The Steelers had just come off a beating agaiinst the Ravens which ended their season. Carson Palmer at home, had the steelers right where he wated them. He should have drilled Pittsburgh. Yet his offense scored only 3 points in the first 3 Quarters. He end up losing in OT. The game shouldn't have been close. The bengals were a solid Favorite in that game. Those are the kind of games that are very winnable, yet he just hasn't shown he has it. And he is coming on his 6th season now.
    $$$ This is the difference between winners and losers. Ben is a winner...Palmer is a It really is that simple.

  5. #25
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    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy
    PS...it really irritates me that you are making me look up stats but I think last years numbers are fairly telling.

    Ben- 32TDs 11 ints passer rating of 104.1 yards 3,154
    Carson- Passer rating of 86.7... yards...4,131 26 tds 20 ints

    I don't know but Bens look quite a bit better to me.
    I can't wait for this season to begin SMG. I have no doubt that Carson will put up better numbers. Just wait and see...

  6. #26
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    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Smartmonies
    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy

    Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".
    So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

    That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

    So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?
    Bengals vs Bills I pick this game cause I can remember losing a bet on the Bengals.

    4th QTR (Bengals up 21 -16 start of 4TH QTR)

    9-R.Lindell kicks 75 yards from BUF 30 to CIN -5. 16-G.Holt, Touchback.
    1-10-CIN 20 (13:54) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep right to 85-C.Johnson (56-K.Ellison, 37-G.Wilson). Pass tipped at CIN 32 by K.Ellison, nearly intercepted by G.Wilson at CIN 37.
    2-10-CIN 20 (13:47) 33-K.Watson right guard to CIN 22 for 2 yards (37-G.Wilson).
    3-8-CIN 22 (13:05) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
    Larson punts

    1-10-CIN 8 (11:24) 32-R.Johnson left guard to CIN 5 for -3 yards (90-C.Kelsay).
    2-13-CIN 5 (10:46) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 82-R.Kelly to CIN 13 for 8 yards (33-J.Greer, 55-A.Crowell). Caught in flat at CIN 10.
    3-5-CIN 13 (10:0 (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
    Larson punts

    1-10-CIN 26 (5:45) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson to CIN 38 for 12 yards (55-A.Crowell). Screen, caught at CIN 27.
    1-10-CIN 38 (5:12) (No Huddle) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to 16-G.Holt [27-C.Wire]. Underthrown, receiver at CIN 48.
    2-10-CIN 38 (5:0 (No Huddle) 33-K.Watson left guard to CIN 41 for 3 yards (93-A.Hargrove, 37-G.Wilson).
    3-7-CIN 41 (4:26) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short right to 16-G.Holt (24-T.McGee). Receiver and coverage along sideline at CIN 46. Pressure on QB: A.Hargrove.
    Larson punts

    4th possession in 4th QTR , Buffalo now plays prevent

    1-10-CIN 22 (2:14) 9-C.Palmer scrambles right end pushed ob at CIN 29 for 7 yards (55-A.Crowell).
    2-3-CIN 29 (2:06) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to CIN 39 for 10 yards (93-A.Hargrove; 55-A.Crowell). Caught at CIN 36.
    Two-Minute Warning
    1-10-CIN 39 (1:59) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep left to 85-C.Johnson. CIN-85-C.Johnson was injured during the play. Removed from field on stretcher. Thrown wide of receiver at BUF 38.
    Timeout #3 by CIN at 01:53.
    2-10-CIN 39 (1:53) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle (97-J.McCargo). Pass batted at line.
    3-10-CIN 39 (1:4 (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson pushed ob at BUF 45 for 16 yards (94-A.Schobel). Screen, caught at CIN 34.
    1-10-BUF 45 (1:41) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to BUF 36 for 9 yards (25-K.Thomas, 93-A.Hargrove). Caught at BUF37.
    2-1-BUF 36 (1:21) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short right to 33-K.Watson to BUF 28 for 8 yards (55-A.Crowell).
    1-10-BUF 28 (:56) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short left to 84-T.Houshmandzadeh. Dropped, receiver in flat at BUF 22.
    2-10-BUF 28 (:51) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 27-D.Dorsey to BUF 19 for 9 yards (55-A.Crowell). Dump pass, caught at BUF 25.
    3-1-BUF 19 (:29) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 10-M.Maxwell to BUF 14 for 5 yards (33-J.Greer). Slant pattern, caught at BUF 14.
    1-10-BUF 14 (:1 9-C.Palmer spiked the ball to stop the clock.
    2-10-BUF 14 (:1 9-C.Palmer pass short left intended for 10-M.Maxwell INTERCEPTED by 25-K.Thomas at BUF 4. 25-K.Thomas to BUF 12 for 8 yards (10-M.Maxwell).

    Losman kneels.
    Steelers vs. Cardinals.

    Pittsburgh Steelers at 00:46
    1-10-PIT 9 (:46) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep left to 10-S.Holmes (25-E.Green).
    2-10-PIT 9 (:40) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep right to 10-S.Holmes ran ob at PIT 40 for 31 yards (58-K.Dansby).
    1-10-PIT 40 (:32) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep right to 85-N.Washington.
    2-10-PIT 40 (:26) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger sacked at PIT 32 for -8 yards (90-D.Dockett, 97-C.Pace). Penalty on PIT-74-W.Colon, Offensive Holding, declined.
    3-18-PIT 32 (:19) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep middle intended for 85-N.Washington INTERCEPTED by 20-R.Brown at ARI 45. 20-R.Brown to 50 for 5 yards (85-N.Washington).
    Arizona Cardinals at 00:06
    1-10- (:06) 7-M.Leinart kneels to ARI 49 for -1 yards.

    END GAME

    No one is perfect. Plus I remember Ben throwing an INT to end the game against us as well in 2006...

  7. #27
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    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    [quote=stlrz d]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by "stlrz d":1xelbx8n
    Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season?
    31 receptions 422 yards and 6 TD's in 2005 for Henry. Like I said we don't need a stud #3 receiver just the same one each week.

    Look at Nate Washington's #'s the last couple of seasons:

    2007: 29 receptions 450 yards 5 TD's
    2006: 35 receptions 624 yards 4 TD's

    So you're telling me Washington is garbage but Carson is luckly to have Chris Henry? Even Cedric Wilson can put up similar #'s to that...
    No, what I'm saying is with Chris Henry opening things up it helps him, as it should any QB, but without Henry...not so much.

    Meanwhile, as has been pointed out on this thread already, Ben has gotten it done even without his starting receivers in the lineup.[/quote:1xelbx8n]

    So a #3 receiver that doesn't play every snap opens things up? Believe me Chris Perry was more of the reason why we were successful that season than Chris Henry was. Both contributed but not as much as you would like to believe...

  8. #28
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    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarletfire1970
    Carson Palmer has had the luxury of working with the same #1 and #2 WRs throughout his career. Ben had Hines and Plax the first year, then Hines and ARE/Wilson the second year, then Hines and Wilson the 3rd year and Hines and Holmes last year. We all agree that Hines is on the downside of his career and until we got Holmes we had no true deep threat after Plax left.

    If you want to use the excuse that it is the defenses fault they can't win games, I watched the games last year. It was the offense that has been struggling. Carson hasn't been the same since his injury.
    Don't forget Health Miller came in Ben's second season as well. A big TE threat is something you guys grossly underestimate. Just see how Carson will utilize Ben Utecht this season.

    I fully expect you guys to complain that it's because Carson got more weapons like Utecht that he does well this season and it's not him. Yet for the past 3 years you guys rarely acknowledge how much Miller has helped Ben...

  9. #29
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    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy
    PS...it really irritates me that you are making me look up stats but I think last years numbers are fairly telling.

    Ben- 32TDs 11 ints passer rating of 104.1 yards 3,154
    Carson- Passer rating of 86.7... yards...4,131 26 tds 20 ints

    I don't know but Bens look quite a bit better to me.
    I can't wait for this season to begin SMG. I have no doubt that Carson will put up better numbers. Just wait and see...
    Putting up better numbers isn't winning or helping your teams. Because you are in a pass happy offense doesn't mean anything. Passer rating is a much more accurate comparison. Ben's will be better than Palmer.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  10. #30
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    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Oviedo

    Putting up better numbers isn't winning or helping your teams. Because you are in a pass happy offense doesn't mean anything. Passer rating is a much more accurate comparison. Ben's will be better than Palmer.
    Here are Carson and Ben's passer ratings for the past three seasons against Top Ten Defenses:

    2007:

    Carson: 6 Top Ten Defenses (87.42 average)

    Patriots - 65.7
    Titans - 113.0
    Ravens - 100.3
    Ravens - 91.7
    Steelers - 102.2
    Steelers - 51.6

    Ben: 2 Top Ten Defenses (122.3 average)

    Patriots - 86.3
    Ravens - 158.3

    2006:

    Carson: 8 Top Ten Defenses (91.66 average)

    Ravens - 52.4
    Ravens - 97.7
    Raiders - 90.0
    Patriots - 78.9
    Steelers - 98.2
    Steelers - 91.0
    Chargers - 131.1
    Panthers - 94.0

    Ben: 6 Top Ten Defenses (58.9 average)

    Ravens - 46.2
    Ravens - 47.2
    Jags - 38.7
    Raiders - 61.7
    Chargers - 58.5
    Panthers - 101.3

    And before you guys start making excuses between the two Baltimore Raven games that season Ben posted a 85.1, 106.2 and a 101.3 against the Bucs, Browns and Panthers respectively.

    2005:

    Carson: 7 Top Ten Defenses (106.97 average)

    Bears - 130.3
    Steelers - 53.8
    Steelers - 101.5
    Ravens - 128.4
    Ravens - 124.6
    Jags - 108.0
    Packers - 102.2

    Ben: 1 Top Ten Defense (85.0 average)

    Ravens - 85.0


    2004:

    Carson - 9 Top Ten Defenses (75.38 average)

    Steelers - 52.1
    Steelers - 82.9
    Ravens - 43.4
    Ravens - 127.1
    Jets - 105.2
    Dolphins - 53.3
    Patriots - 65.7
    Redskins - 63.7
    Broncos - 85.0

    Ben - 7 Top Ten Defenses (88.34 average)

    Ravens - 82.5
    Ravens - 125.1
    Jets - 33.6
    Dolphins - 74.6
    Patriots - 126.4
    Eagles - 109.3
    Redskins - 66.9


    The discrepancy between the number of top defenses played between the two quarter backs surprised me when I actually looked up the numbers. 30 for Carson to 16 for Ben...

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