Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 36

Thread: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

  1. #11

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy

    You probably said all of that with a straight face...which amazes me. What has Palmer done with the plethera of talent around him? Nothing. Nuff said...next debate.
    Alright SMG, I'll bite.

    First you keep saying that Carson is only good because of the talent around him but did you ever stop to think that maybe he is the reason that the talent looks so good? What did TJ Housh do prior to Carson arriving?

    In three seasons here are TJ's #'s without Carson:

    2003 2 games 0 receptions 0 yards 0 TD
    2002 16 games 41 receptions 492 yards 1 TD
    2001 12 games 21 receptions 228 yards 0 TD

    Then Carson takes over in 2004 and rest is history. Not all of this is because of Carson, but having that franchise QB who has been spending his offseasons training with TJ does help don't you think?

    Next as talented as Chris Henry was he was only useful for one season in 2005. He was suspended on and off and injured on and off in 2006. In 2007 he missed half the season and when he came back it took him a while to come up to speed. He was dropping passes and giving up on balls. Anyone that watched the games knows that. I have said for years that a reliable, consistent #3 would be an improvement on Henry. I honestly would have taken Nate Washington over Henry the past two season.

    Then you have Antonio Chatman, I don't think I need to explain the problem here.

    Next is Tab Perry, who looked good in his rookie season but suffered a severe hip injury and missed way too many games. Tab Perry was molded to be that 3rd down option when Chris Perry went down and Chris Henry got suspended. His injury did hurt.

    The next receiver in the list is Glen Holt, a receiver that was waived by the Dallas cowboys (Even with the zero depth at WR that they have). He's a return specialist and nothing more at this point. It would be like counting Alan Rossum as a WR threat.

    Chad is great, but Ward has been just as dependable for you guys.

    Then you take into account that the running game has been pathetic (Not to mention the defense) and you expect this team to win games???

    I created a thread in the trash talk forum that go over the games logs of how Carson has done late in games, but no one wants to debate with me there. They want to point at passer ratings and stupid stats but don't want to argue the facts.

    I didn't want to go down the route of making excuses but after hearing every single excuse in the book being made for Ben (Who I countless times have complimented), you guys leave me with no choice...
    Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".

  2. #12
    Pro Bowler
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    1,498

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy

    Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".
    So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

    That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

    So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?

    Here is the thread BTW, that discusses how Palmer performed late in games:

    viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144

    I finally got one answer (that responds to the topic) from Ike, but unfortunatley it's more passer ratings.

    Also from a statistical standpoint (Passing Yards, Completion %, Passer Rating, # of TD's, etc...), Carson has always looked good with the exception of last season. So we can talk stats if you want to but really do you want to go down that road again?

  3. #13
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Stuart, FL
    Posts
    9,215

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season?

  4. #14
    Hall of Famer ikestops85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,211

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy

    Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".
    So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

    That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

    So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?

    Here is the thread BTW, that discusses how Palmer performed late in games:

    viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144

    I finally got one answer (that responds to the topic) from Ike, but unfortunatley it's more passer ratings.

    Also from a statistical standpoint (Passing Yards, Completion %, Passer Rating, # of TD's, etc...), Carson has always looked good with the exception of last season. So we can talk stats if you want to but really do you want to go down that road again?
    Joms, I realize that passer rating does not begin to cover everything regarding a QB's performance late in games. For example, it doesn't include the QB's scrambling ability or running for a first down and getting out of bounds. It is a good starting point to see how a QB does as a PASSER in these circumstances. Not how he does as a leader.

    That's why in my post I said I hadn't done a lot of research on it. However the research I did shows Carson is nothing special either in the 4th quarter or when within 7 points in the 4th quarter. In only 1 of his 4 years of playing did he show significant improvement in his passer rating for those categories. In most cases he was surprisingly ordinary.

    You can't just list a few games where the rest of the team let him down as proof. I remember a Steeler game where he was handed the game in the 4th quarter on fumbles by Parker and Coclough (sp). I agree that going over each game log would be a more viable way but far too tedious for me.
    <a href=http://seahawknationblog.com/files/2011/02/roger-goodell.jpg target=_blank>http://seahawknationblog.com/files/2...er-goodell.jpg</a>

  5. #15
    Pro Bowler
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    1,498

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by stlrz d
    Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season?
    31 receptions 422 yards and 6 TD's in 2005 for Henry. Like I said we don't need a stud #3 receiver just the same one each week.

    Look at Nate Washington's #'s the last couple of seasons:

    2007: 29 receptions 450 yards 5 TD's
    2006: 35 receptions 624 yards 4 TD's

    So you're telling me Washington is garbage but Carson is luckly to have Chris Henry? Even Cedric Wilson can put up similar #'s to that...

    Quote Originally Posted by ikestops85
    Joms, I realize that passer rating does not begin to cover everything regarding a QB's performance late in games. For example, it doesn't include the QB's scrambling ability or running for a first down and getting out of bounds. It is a good starting point to see how a QB does as a PASSER in these circumstances. Not how he does as a leader.

    That's why in my post I said I hadn't done a lot of research on it. However the research I did shows Carson is nothing special either in the 4th quarter or when within 7 points in the 4th quarter. In only 1 of his 4 years of playing did he show significant improvement in his passer rating for those categories. In most cases he was surprisingly ordinary.

    You can't just list a few games where the rest of the team let him down as proof. I remember a Steeler game where he was handed the game in the 4th quarter on fumbles by Parker and Coclough (sp). I agree that going over each game log would be a more viable way but far too tedious for me.
    That is only one stat Ike. And one of the "average" seasons that you talk about his passer rating was 91.9. 91.9 is not average.

    Also here are some more stats for you:

    Behind by 9-16 Points
    Carson 90.8
    Ben 84.4

    When the game is tied
    Carson 100.5
    Ben 89.2

    Which is why I posted the game logs of the games that were in question. They showed how Carson actually played.

    I'm trying to avoid using just stats because from a purely statistical standpoint Carson has done better than Ben in 3 out of the 4 seasons that each have played...

  6. #16

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy

    Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".
    So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

    That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

    So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?

    Here is the thread BTW, that discusses how Palmer performed late in games:

    viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144

    I finally got one answer (that responds to the topic) from Ike, but unfortunatley it's more passer ratings.

    Also from a statistical standpoint (Passing Yards, Completion %, Passer Rating, # of TD's, etc...), Carson has always looked good with the exception of last season. So we can talk stats if you want to but really do you want to go down that road again?
    I picked the one line because it was really the only one that made sense.

    And yes I want to talk stats.

    Super Bowl Victories:

    Ben-1
    Palmer-0

    Nuff said.

  7. #17

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    PS...it really irritates me that you are making me look up stats but I think last years numbers are fairly telling.

    Ben- 32TDs 11 ints passer rating of 104.1 yards 3,154
    Carson- Passer rating of 86.7... yards...4,131 26 tds 20 ints

    I don't know but Bens look quite a bit better to me.

  8. #18
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Stuart, FL
    Posts
    9,215

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by stlrz d
    Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season?
    31 receptions 422 yards and 6 TD's in 2005 for Henry. Like I said we don't need a stud #3 receiver just the same one each week.

    Look at Nate Washington's #'s the last couple of seasons:

    2007: 29 receptions 450 yards 5 TD's
    2006: 35 receptions 624 yards 4 TD's

    So you're telling me Washington is garbage but Carson is luckly to have Chris Henry? Even Cedric Wilson can put up similar #'s to that...
    No, what I'm saying is with Chris Henry opening things up it helps him, as it should any QB, but without Henry...not so much.

    Meanwhile, as has been pointed out on this thread already, Ben has gotten it done even without his starting receivers in the lineup.

  9. #19
    Pro Bowler
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South West Indiana
    Posts
    2,091

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    [quote=stlrz d]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by "stlrz d":1g3j5shd
    Chris Henry played in 2005...wasn't that Palmer's best season?
    31 receptions 422 yards and 6 TD's in 2005 for Henry. Like I said we don't need a stud #3 receiver just the same one each week.

    Look at Nate Washington's #'s the last couple of seasons:

    2007: 29 receptions 450 yards 5 TD's
    2006: 35 receptions 624 yards 4 TD's

    So you're telling me Washington is garbage but Carson is luckly to have Chris Henry? Even Cedric Wilson can put up similar #'s to that...

    Meanwhile, as has been pointed out on this thread already, Ben has gotten it done even without his starting receivers in the lineup.[/quote:1g3j5shd]

    Stlrz d is correct. Check the stat line of the Steelers/Seahawks game last year and check out how Ward & Holmes did........

  10. #20

    Re: Fox Sports Rates the QBs--much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy

    Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".
    So you pick at one line if the whole post and focus on that? And semantics nonetheless.

    That comment was made because "passer rating" in the fourth quarter doesnt take into account running the clock out at the end of games or spiking the football. If you look at the actual game logs then you can see how Carson performed.

    So while I agree passer ratings are facts, the actual game logs would be a better indication of how Carson actually did in those games, wouldn't you agree?
    Bengals vs Bills I pick this game cause I can remember losing a bet on the Bengals.

    4th QTR (Bengals up 21 -16 start of 4TH QTR)

    9-R.Lindell kicks 75 yards from BUF 30 to CIN -5. 16-G.Holt, Touchback.
    1-10-CIN 20 (13:54) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete deep right to 85-C.Johnson (56-K.Ellison, 37-G.Wilson). Pass tipped at CIN 32 by K.Ellison, nearly intercepted by G.Wilson at CIN 37.
    2-10-CIN 20 (13:47) 33-K.Watson right guard to CIN 22 for 2 yards (37-G.Wilson).
    3-8-CIN 22 (13:05) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
    Larson punts

    1-10-CIN 8 (11:24) 32-R.Johnson left guard to CIN 5 for -3 yards (90-C.Kelsay).
    2-13-CIN 5 (10:46) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 82-R.Kelly to CIN 13 for 8 yards (33-J.Greer, 55-A.Crowell). Caught in flat at CIN 10.
    3-5-CIN 13 (10:0 (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete
    Larson punts

    1-10-CIN 26 (5:45) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson to CIN 38 for 12 yards (55-A.Crowell). Screen, caught at CIN 27.
    1-10-CIN 38 (5:12) (No Huddle) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to 16-G.Holt [27-C.Wire]. Underthrown, receiver at CIN 48.
    2-10-CIN 38 (5:0 (No Huddle) 33-K.Watson left guard to CIN 41 for 3 yards (93-A.Hargrove, 37-G.Wilson).
    3-7-CIN 41 (4:26) (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short right to 16-G.Holt (24-T.McGee). Receiver and coverage along sideline at CIN 46. Pressure on QB: A.Hargrove.
    Larson punts

    4th possession in 4th QTR , Buffalo now plays prevent

    1-10-CIN 22 (2:14) 9-C.Palmer scrambles right end pushed ob at CIN 29 for 7 yards (55-A.Crowell).
    2-3-CIN 29 (2:06) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to CIN 39 for 10 yards (93-A.Hargrove; 55-A.Crowell). Caught at CIN 36.
    Two-Minute Warning
    1-10-CIN 39 (1:59) 9- C.Palmer pass incomplete deep left to 85-C.Johnson. CIN-85-C.Johnson was injured during the play. Removed from field on stretcher. Thrown wide of receiver at BUF 38.
    Timeout #3 by CIN at 01:53.
    2-10-CIN 39 (1:53) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle (97-J.McCargo). Pass batted at line.
    3-10-CIN 39 (1:4 (Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short left to 33-K.Watson pushed ob at BUF 45 for 16 yards (94-A.Schobel). Screen, caught at CIN 34.
    1-10-BUF 45 (1:41) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 86-D.Coats to BUF 36 for 9 yards (25-K.Thomas, 93-A.Hargrove). Caught at BUF37.
    2-1-BUF 36 (1:21) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short right to 33-K.Watson to BUF 28 for 8 yards (55-A.Crowell).
    1-10-BUF 28 (:56) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass incomplete short left to 84-T.Houshmandzadeh. Dropped, receiver in flat at BUF 22.
    2-10-BUF 28 (:51) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 27-D.Dorsey to BUF 19 for 9 yards (55-A.Crowell). Dump pass, caught at BUF 25.
    3-1-BUF 19 (:29) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 9-C.Palmer pass short middle to 10-M.Maxwell to BUF 14 for 5 yards (33-J.Greer). Slant pattern, caught at BUF 14.
    1-10-BUF 14 (:1 9-C.Palmer spiked the ball to stop the clock.
    2-10-BUF 14 (:1 9-C.Palmer pass short left intended for 10-M.Maxwell INTERCEPTED by 25-K.Thomas at BUF 4. 25-K.Thomas to BUF 12 for 8 yards (10-M.Maxwell).

    Losman kneels.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •