Quote Originally Posted by Jom112
Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMedGuy

You probably said all of that with a straight face...which amazes me. What has Palmer done with the plethera of talent around him? Nothing. Nuff said...next debate.
Alright SMG, I'll bite.

First you keep saying that Carson is only good because of the talent around him but did you ever stop to think that maybe he is the reason that the talent looks so good? What did TJ Housh do prior to Carson arriving?

In three seasons here are TJ's #'s without Carson:

2003 2 games 0 receptions 0 yards 0 TD
2002 16 games 41 receptions 492 yards 1 TD
2001 12 games 21 receptions 228 yards 0 TD

Then Carson takes over in 2004 and rest is history. Not all of this is because of Carson, but having that franchise QB who has been spending his offseasons training with TJ does help don't you think?

Next as talented as Chris Henry was he was only useful for one season in 2005. He was suspended on and off and injured on and off in 2006. In 2007 he missed half the season and when he came back it took him a while to come up to speed. He was dropping passes and giving up on balls. Anyone that watched the games knows that. I have said for years that a reliable, consistent #3 would be an improvement on Henry. I honestly would have taken Nate Washington over Henry the past two season.

Then you have Antonio Chatman, I don't think I need to explain the problem here.

Next is Tab Perry, who looked good in his rookie season but suffered a severe hip injury and missed way too many games. Tab Perry was molded to be that 3rd down option when Chris Perry went down and Chris Henry got suspended. His injury did hurt.

The next receiver in the list is Glen Holt, a receiver that was waived by the Dallas cowboys (Even with the zero depth at WR that they have). He's a return specialist and nothing more at this point. It would be like counting Alan Rossum as a WR threat.

Chad is great, but Ward has been just as dependable for you guys.

Then you take into account that the running game has been pathetic (Not to mention the defense) and you expect this team to win games???

I created a thread in the trash talk forum that go over the games logs of how Carson has done late in games, but no one wants to debate with me there. They want to point at passer ratings and stupid stats but don't want to argue the facts.

I didn't want to go down the route of making excuses but after hearing every single excuse in the book being made for Ben (Who I countless times have complimented), you guys leave me with no choice...
Last time I checked...passer ratings and stats are indeed facts. Another fact...Ben has been in significantly more playoff games and has won a SB. So, if stats and accomplishments don't determine skill...what does? Please give me some "facts" that would allow us to assess Carsons "skill".