Jesus and Horus

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10-11-2012, 03:15 PM
D Rock

I'll add my perspective, because I've been on both sides and I fall somewhere in the middle of it all. Maybe it can be used as reference to bridge some gaps between the views you all hold.

I went to church as a child, and I believed things because I was told that is what I should do. When I got to about 14 years old and started really thinking for myself, I became an atheist, and as lloydroid has alluded to, I felt that religion was a crutch that the mentally weak used to get by in their everyday lives and explain things they needed answers for. I was plenty happy not knowing those answers. Or so I thought.

Things were great through high school, but then I got to college and started partying, drinking, and chasing girls as sexual objects. It was really fun...except that there was a problem. I found I couldn't turn it off when I graduated and left that lifestyle. I had lost my moral values and began falling into a cycle of alcohol dependence to get me through the lonely days because I had lost the ability to function socially with respect and genuine love for others.

The whole time I was living that life I thought I was having fun, but there was always an empty pit inside of me and I knew that who I had become wasn't the real me or the me that I wanted to be. I finally found my answer when I read a book titled 'Blue Like Jazz' by a Christian author named Donald Miller. I don't know why I decided to do it, but it just seemed like what I was supposed to do. It was at that time that I realized I needed Jesus in my life and as my savior, because I had become the sinner that needed help. I didn't need the forgiveness of my sins necessarily...I had made those choices and was ready to accept the consequences...but I needed the love of Jesus to fill my heart and fill the void in my life. So I welcomed Jesus in to my life, and wouldn't you know it...the excessive amounts of alcohol lost it's appeal (I still like to drink, but not like before...I can control it now instead of it controlling me). I started to love myself, and in turn was able to truly love others.

I rarely go to church. I don't trust religious types. I feel the Bible has generally been used as a weapon to control people's lives for most of it's existence. I'm a Christian because I have a relationship with Jesus, not because I am religious and belong to a church.
10-11-2012, 03:21 PM
D Rock

here are a couple guys we all know talking about religion...I particularly can relate to Baron Batch when he says that even when he was 1000 steps away from God/Jesus, they took 999 steps so that he would be able to take the last one.

http://www.iamsecond.com/seconds/baron-batch/

http://www.iamsecond.com/seconds/daniel-sepulveda/
10-11-2012, 05:03 PM
Shawn

Thanks

Rock...thanks for sharing that. I see alot of myself in that story. I can really agree with pretty much every party involved...people who feel well and whole generally don't seek God. It's those of us with this empty pit...the knowledge that something is missing...and knowing that when we call all the shots that our lives take a turn for the worse. So, if that is a "crutch"...give me two because I have limped through this life for much too long. I am not one of those "naturally good people" that lloyd speaks about. I needed something or someone beyond me to change me at my core. I could be defined as arrogant, entitled, selfish, narcississtic, a drunk etc and so on. It damaged my relationships with others, God and myself. So maybe lloyd has a point...I sought God because I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I needed God....and need God. Today, I'm far from perfect...my wife has said, "yeah Shawn...you have come a long way...but WOW did you have a long way to come...need a pat on the back?" lol...gotta love her. But, today I feel comfortable more days than not in my own skin. I don't have to make as many apologies for my behavior. I can laugh at myself and my quirks. And most of all I experience some joy and peace for the first time in my life. I'm convinced the church and religion had nothing to do with it. I'm even more convinced I had little to do with it. But, I'm also convinced that it has been and will continue to be a God thing.

PS-Blue Like Jazz is sitting on my desk beside me. :) Also try on Ragamuffin Gospel...wow powerful stuff...great book.
10-11-2012, 06:44 PM
D Rock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn

Rock...thanks for sharing that. I see alot of myself in that story. I can really agree with pretty much every party involved...people who feel well and whole generally don't seek God. It's those of us with this empty pit...the knowledge that something is missing...and knowing that when we call all the shots that our lives take a turn for the worse. So, if that is a "crutch"...give me two because I have limped through this life for much too long. I am not one of those "naturally good people" that lloyd speaks about. I needed something or someone beyond me to change me at my core. I could be defined as arrogant, entitled, selfish, narcississtic, a drunk etc and so on. It damaged my relationships with others, God and myself. So maybe lloyd has a point...I sought God because I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I needed God....and need God. Today, I'm far from perfect...my wife has said, "yeah Shawn...you have come a long way...but WOW did you have a long way to come...need a pat on the back?" lol...gotta love her. But, today I feel comfortable more days than not in my own skin. I don't have to make as many apologies for my behavior. I can laugh at myself and my quirks. And most of all I experience some joy and peace for the first time in my life. I'm convinced the church and religion had nothing to do with it. I'm even more convinced I had little to do with it. But, I'm also convinced that it has been and will continue to be a God thing.

PS-Blue Like Jazz is sitting on my desk beside me. :) Also try on Ragamuffin Gospel...wow powerful stuff...great book.

Shawn, I want to thank you for sharing too. Reading through your posts, and seeing the similarities between our views and feelings, is what really made me want to post my story. My viewpoint will always be that a relationship with God and Jesus is not a church thing. I came to my conclusions without having set foot inside a church for probably well over 5 years, and not having listened to what the church was telling me for probably another 5 years before that. The point where I realized it was a personal thing, not a group thing, is when my whole perspective changed. I have my my fiancee and Donald Miller to thank for that.
10-11-2012, 07:42 PM
flippy

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Rock

My viewpoint will always be that a relationship with God and Jesus is not a church thing. I came to my conclusions without having set foot inside a church for probably well over 5 years, and not having listened to what the church was telling me for probably another 5 years before that. The point where I realized it was a personal thing, not a group thing, is when my whole perspective changed.

The concept of Christ's church and the local church you go to on Sunday are distinct. The local church is man made and has all the problems of the world in it. Christ's church is really referring to the body of Christ. It's the community of believers. And it is important in the context of the Bible story. Christ died to save the Church which is the whole body of believers. So in the context of the story, Jesus/God intended it to be a group thing in that context.

Whatever anyone believes, I do think it's logical to seek a higher purpose and that higher purpose and hope can drive better behavior, freedom from life's troubles, and spiritual joy for the seeker. I also see it being logical that we're all unique and all possess unique gifts/talents that we were given to be shared with others. Why else put other people here with us? And why else give them different gifts/talents? And I also think it's logical that we need the gifts/talents of others.

This whole spiritual journey reminds me of the trinity. Our relationship with a God (whoever one decided that to be for themselves) and the Church (the body of like minded individuals seeking hope, joy, a better life). And I see it intertwined into a single purpose. Together, we can do more than alone. No one needs to be burdened or walk alone in this world.

There's probably a list of 5-10 things that make everyone happy and they're all probably tied into a spirituality in some way.

With all that said, I don't think participating in a local church makes much difference. I think Christians can do a lot more outside of the local church if they focus on being part of Christ's universal church of believers.

I see there being a lot behind all of these words and tend to believe them to be much more inclusive than most people generally accept.
10-12-2012, 08:32 AM
Shawn

Good post Flippy. I would agree with all of that.
10-15-2012, 05:08 PM
lloydroid

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Rock

I'll add my perspective, because I've been on both sides and I fall somewhere in the middle of it all. Maybe it can be used as reference to bridge some gaps between the views you all hold.

I went to church as a child, and I believed things because I was told that is what I should do. When I got to about 14 years old and started really thinking for myself, I became an atheist, and as lloydroid has alluded to, I felt that religion was a crutch that the mentally weak used to get by in their everyday lives and explain things they needed answers for. I was plenty happy not knowing those answers. Or so I thought.

Things were great through high school, but then I got to college and started partying, drinking, and chasing girls as sexual objects. It was really fun...except that there was a problem. I found I couldn't turn it off when I graduated and left that lifestyle. I had lost my moral values and began falling into a cycle of alcohol dependence to get me through the lonely days because I had lost the ability to function socially with respect and genuine love for others.

The whole time I was living that life I thought I was having fun, but there was always an empty pit inside of me and I knew that who I had become wasn't the real me or the me that I wanted to be. I finally found my answer when I read a book titled 'Blue Like Jazz' by a Christian author named Donald Miller. I don't know why I decided to do it, but it just seemed like what I was supposed to do. It was at that time that I realized I needed Jesus in my life and as my savior, because I had become the sinner that needed help. I didn't need the forgiveness of my sins necessarily...I had made those choices and was ready to accept the consequences...but I needed the love of Jesus to fill my heart and fill the void in my life. So I welcomed Jesus in to my life, and wouldn't you know it...the excessive amounts of alcohol lost it's appeal (I still like to drink, but not like before...I can control it now instead of it controlling me). I started to love myself, and in turn was able to truly love others.

I rarely go to church. I don't trust religious types. I feel the Bible has generally been used as a weapon to control people's lives for most of it's existence. I'm a Christian because I have a relationship with Jesus, not because I am religious and belong to a church.

D Rock, I respect your thoughts and story. This is why I truly don't tend to judge others on their beliefs - even if I don't share them. I can't tell you how you should feel about Jesus, or anyone about their personal belief of their God, or Lord. But where I do "push back" is when someone ridicules your "sources" when their sources are just the Bible, as if that is the irrefutable, undisputed scientific source. Anyone who is "religious" is going to tout their holy book as "THE" source. Fine. Roll with it. But don't expect others to blindly agree. I feel it's just as offensive for a Christian to ridicule an atheist as vise versa. Both have their beliefs - disrespecting either is of equal offense. Just because one's "beliefs" include the worship of a holy book does not automatically make their beliefs more valid. Many would argue it actually makes their belief likely less valid. But whatever.

I actually admire those who live their life that resembles the stated teachings of Jesus. I think it is the right way to live, for the most part. I just notice that many people who live in such decency are not church folk, and that many right wing, conservative Christians are often big hypocrites. They drive around in their Lexus SUVs, turn in their envelope each Sunday and promptly ignore most of the teachings of Christ as soon as they leave the church parking lot. Jesus taught to care for each other, and care extra for the poor, downtrodden, hungry, etc. And many of those people despise the poor, and think helping them is "giving out handouts" which they despise. Would Jesus despise helping out the poor and hungry? Do you think that my giving $20 to your church each week really reaches the poor and hungry on any kind of a significant basis? I feel better about giving $ to the homeless outside the booze store than I trust how much $ from church really shows up to feed the poor or house the downtrodden. The Catholic Church has more $ than most countries on earth; how much do their riches really help the world's poor? How much of that $ truly goes there? Anyone want to guess?

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin...cgi?read=68927

The Catholic Church, itself, does not practice the teachings of Christ. How sick is that?
10-16-2012, 09:22 AM
Shawn

lloyd, I am curious...you say you don't judge other people or their beliefs but your posts indicate otherwise. You state that because "someone" which I assume was me "ridiculed" your sources...that is why you "pushed back. You do realize you did a drive by assault on the Christian faith...unprovoked right? You are not a victim. Also, if you are going to compare someones belief system to an Egyptian fairy tale with sources which are questionable at best...you must expect someone to come along and defend their beliefs. Doing a drive by slam on the Christian faith, in a football post lacked class. That is just one man's opinion so take it for what it's worth.

And for the record, my background is science...my degrees in science and medicine. So, my beliefs are from multiple sources...with multiple influences...and "not just the Bible". I'm not a Bible banging bumpkin...and I don't use the Bible as a history or a science book. It's Holy Scriptures that paint out the relevation of Christ to mankind...darkness to light. I see God in science...I see God in medicine. And yes...I see God in the Bible. That is my personal interpretation of the data. And there is something in my heart I can't explain...it's called faith. It was given to me...don't understand it because I tend to be a proof and study kind of guy. I don't push my beliefs on anyone...certainly not on you. I don't go door to door...or hang outside abortion clinics calling women whores and murderers. I believe in the truly good news that Jesus Christ is the savior of ALL men...not just a select few...that includes you. If you don't believe that...welp that is what makes the world go around. I'm not here to convince you otherwise. But, before you spread lies about peoples faith, double check your sources and actually go check out some of the original sources.

If me calling out your lack of research into a subject before using faulty information to defame millions of peoples faith hurt your feelings, I apologize. Hurting your feelings wasn't my intent. I try to walk out my faith in love today. I fell short of that in some of my posts...but I too like you are human.

If you ever want to discuss the Bible (what you believe are "inconsistencies"), science, the universe, or whatever...I love those subjects and think a respectful debate (like I have had with flippy and eni in the past) can be had. Start a topic...I would love to engage a healthy debate.
10-16-2012, 09:52 AM
Shawn

LLoyd, also read through the end of your post where you begin judging Christians...after saying you "truly dont tend to judge people". Can I make some observations? Can I ask a few questions?

1) What percentage of Christians do you believe actually fit this broad brushed stroke you just painted...Lexus SUVs, Right winged, stingy with the poor, hypocrites?

2) Of this percentage, how many of these people do you actually know well? Did you experience their trauma, their problems, walk in their shoes? Do you have a firm footing with which to judge these people? Is it ok to judge these people, but not the alcoholic living under the bridge? Why is it different?

3) If there are sick people within a hospital, does that mean that medicine is a lie? Does it mean the nurses, clerks, techs and doctors are hypcrites and liars even if some of those people don't get well? What if they leave the hospital sick, and spread their infection to others? Does that make medicine a farce?

Can you allow me to share a few things? Not all Christians are right winged, Lexus driving, Bible banging, door to door, judgmental, bigoted hypocrites. But, even if there are some...or even a majority it doesn't negate the underlying truth...that there is a God who created you and me. It doesn't mean that Jesus Christ is a "fairy tale" from Egyptian mythology. It doesn't mean the values of New Covenant Biblical faith are not wonderful things to embrace.

I have a theory...let me run it by you. If you disagree so be it.

Men have used the things of God for their own purposes. It was one of the main things Jesus Christ fought against. Some of the thing you have pointed out have some validity. I believe Jesus himself would agree with you on some of your points. People in general (not just Christians) are self centered, money hungry, and not really all that concerned with those around them who are not friends or relatives. People (not just Christians) are inconsistent, and hypocritical and often prejudice and bigoted. I don't know if I have met too many that couldn't own some of this.

The problem...why do Christians get the bad rap? Because, you go to church and in many churches people wear masks. Some of them are not real (of course that goes for non Christians as well). But, when they claim a higher standard of living...point fingers and do not live a life of love and giving...welp that is when other people fight back. Then you have man made systems around the things of God...things used to control power and money....things Jesus fought against. People SHOULD buck against that as well. People of faith should buck against these systems of control and fear.

So, lloyd I would imagine you have judged me according to some prejudice you have in your head. I would bet there is much we can agree on.

Personally, I don't negate what I believe to be truth because people have tried to warp it....because many don't live it....because many are too sick to rise out of these man made systems. I think it's important to realize who you are truly angry with, instead of painting broad brushed strokes on a whole group of people.

That's just my 2 cents take it for what it's worth.
10-17-2012, 05:52 PM
lloydroid

Quote:

LLoyd, also read through the end of your post where you begin judging Christians...after saying you "truly dont tend to judge people". Can I make some observations? Can I ask a few questions?

Umm, sure, especially since you said you would not be conversing with me on this subject.

Quote:

1) What percentage of Christians do you believe actually fit this broad brushed stroke you just painted...Lexus SUVs, Right winged, stingy with the poor, hypocrites?

Well, being that the % of people who are rich enough to afford a new Lexus SUV, I'd have to say that particular brand of Christian would have to be fairly low.

Quote:

2) Of this percentage, how many of these people do you actually know well? Did you experience their trauma, their problems, walk in their shoes? Do you have a firm footing with which to judge these people? Is it ok to judge these people, but not the alcoholic living under the bridge? Why is it different?

Oh, it's different for sure. The guy living under the bridge most likely never had the wealth or opportunity that these mean people had. They have the same mentality that Mitt Romney exhibited, which was that all those getting hand outs are slackers who don't ever put in any effort; that anyone not well off can be explained away as just being lazy, thus, those with wealth all deserve it, because they are not lazy like the homeless.

Quote:

3) If there are sick people within a hospital, does that mean that medicine is a lie? Does it mean the nurses, clerks, techs and doctors are hypcrites and liars even if some of those people don't get well? What if they leave the hospital sick, and spread their infection to others? Does that make medicine a farce?

Actually, allopathic medicine actually is a farce, in many ways. But I'm not sure what your point is.

Quote:

Can you allow me to share a few things? Not all Christians are right winged, Lexus driving, Bible banging, door to door, judgmental, bigoted hypocrites. But, even if there are some...or even a majority it doesn't negate the underlying truth...that there is a God who created you and me. It doesn't mean that Jesus Christ is a "fairy tale" from Egyptian mythology. It doesn't mean the values of New Covenant Biblical faith are not wonderful things to embrace.

That's simply your beliefs, nothing stated can be taken as fact. I will give just one little nugget. Christians tell me that God is all loving and all powerful. OK, that means he is full of love and can control each and everything. Then tell me why he allows so much suffering and despair in the world. Would an all loving, all powerful God allow so much misery? That doesn't seem very loving to me. And since he is all powerful, why allow so much suffering? If I were all powerful, I would make people's lives so much more pleasant.

Quote:

I have a theory...let me run it by you. If you disagree so be it.

Shoot.

Quote:

Men have used the things of God for their own purposes. It was one of the main things Jesus Christ fought against. Some of the thing you have pointed out have some validity. I believe Jesus himself would agree with you on some of your points. People in general (not just Christians) are self centered, money hungry, and not really all that concerned with those around them who are not friends or relatives. People (not just Christians) are inconsistent, and hypocritical and often prejudice and bigoted. I don't know if I have met too many that couldn't own some of this.

The problem...why do Christians get the bad rap? Because, you go to church and in many churches people wear masks. Some of them are not real (of course that goes for non Christians as well). But, when they claim a higher standard of living...point fingers and do not live a life of love and giving...welp that is when other people fight back. Then you have man made systems around the things of God...things used to control power and money....things Jesus fought against. People SHOULD buck against that as well. People of faith should buck against these systems of control and fear.

So, lloyd I would imagine you have judged me according to some prejudice you have in your head. I would bet there is much we can agree on.

Personally, I don't negate what I believe to be truth because people have tried to warp it....because many don't live it....because many are too sick to rise out of these man made systems. I think it's important to realize who you are truly angry with, instead of painting broad brushed strokes on a whole group of people.

That's just my 2 cents take it for what it's worth.

OK, look, you might be a fine person, and not resemble the people I described, at all. The only thing I took issue with was when you said you had to "chuckle" at my sources, while your source is 100% unscientific requiring one to turn off independent thought. And I have no problem with that, if that is your choice, but for you to "chuckle" at sources seems a little out of line. And you are right: In now way are the people I described the "norm" of Christians, as most don't have that kind of $ to begin with, but that is what I see where I live; it's a wealthy town full of people driving Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguars to the point where those are the most common cars. We have a Catholic Church down the street that added a multi-million $ addition, not that it really needed it, but, what they heck, they could afford to do it so they did. This way, the wealthy parishioners can enjoy their grand, brand new, massive new section for mass. But I digress. No, the majority of Christians don't resemble these comments, but the ones that do, many who live in my town, do. I find it extra offensive that these people think they can be mean and ruthless to most people they come across and think that by going to mass and giving the church a few bucks each week, they are covered with God. I don't buy that. And they also hide under the "we all sin, that's why Jesus died on the cross" and that makes their self-centered lives OK, since <shrugs shoulders> we all sin, so their transgressions against fellow man are just part of their sinning - which everyone does any ways. And, oh, they gave $ to the shelter on Thanksgiving, so that really has them covered. Oh, and let's not forget: They put that fish/Jesus symbol on the back of their luxury SUV, so, man oh man, they got the God thing totally covered, no matter how poorly they treat others.

In my life experience, I have found that when someone is quick to bring up how Christian they are, it's time to run and put both hands on your wallet. Those who race to announcing how cool they are with Jesus tend to be questionable in their character. Not every one of them, of course. But far too many. Oh, and just one more unreal hypocrisy: Can you tell me how one can be a practicing Christian and be supportive of unneeded wars? Would Jesus ever be in favor of that? War that are prosperous for the bankers and their bedfellows, at the expense of the common man and poor. And yet, republican Christians "support our troops" which they think means to support the immoral wars, which is the furthest thing from the truth. When W Bush got his daily military updates, each one had a different passage from the Bible on the cover. That is beyond twisted. What a complete moron and idiot, to roll like that.

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