Correct Smythe If He's Wrong About Jarvis Jones........

Correct Smythe If He's Wrong About Jarvis Jones...........but is there really a difference between He and Lawrence Timmons?? I've watched his highlight film and he seems like a pursuit guy but I really don't see someone who's a true pass rusher.

[QUOTE=SidSmythe;559991]Correct Smythe If He's Wrong About Jarvis Jones...........but is there really a difference between He and Lawrence Timmons?? I've watched his highlight film and he seems like a pursuit guy but I really don't see someone who's a true pass rusher.[/QUOTE]

Ok then explain the 28 sacks in the SEC over the past two years? I think that right there is the epitome of a true pass rusher. ;)

[QUOTE=Dee Dub;559994]Ok then explain the 28 sacks in the SEC over the past two years? I think that right there is the epitome of a true pass rusher. ;)[/QUOTE] I'm just not a big stats guy. David Pollack had more sacks than him and that didn't mean anything going into the NFL. I see Jones have great pursuit but as for straight up rushing the passer I just don't see it.

[QUOTE=SidSmythe;560003]I'm just not a big stats guy. David Pollack had more sacks than him and that didn't mean anything going into the NFL. I see Jones have great pursuit but as for straight up rushing the passer I just don't see it.[/QUOTE]

First of all, when David Pollack played in the SEC, the SEC wasn't what it is today...the best conference in all of college football. Not even close. Second, ignoring the stats in this case ignores the fact that Jones was getting to the QB at an elite level. Sacks are a direct result of ones pass rush ability, and 28 over two seasons plus 44 tackles for loss says that Jarvis is causing major havoc. So how one can come away that he doesn't have above average pass rush skills is beyond me. What are the opposing blockers and QB's doing? Laying down? Oh and Jarvis Jones also added 7 forced fumbles last season. He is a beast no matter what pone thinks of his pass rush skills. And you get him in LeBeau's system and I gotta believe he will be even better.

[QUOTE=SidSmythe;559991]Correct Smythe If He's Wrong About Jarvis Jones...........but is there really a difference between He and Lawrence Timmons?? I've watched his highlight film and he seems like a pursuit guy but I really don't see someone who's a true pass rusher.[/QUOTE]

Sid, I won't say that you're gonna be wrong about him. But the dude can flat out play and would be as ready as anyone on the roster to fill the hole left by Deebo's departure if selected.

I remember when we drafted Timmons that I felt he was gonna need 3 years or so to get his legs under him because the Steelers drafted him as an underclassman. Sure enough, it took him at least that long to figure things out, and now he is poised to be one of the next great, dominant LBs in the league. I'm glad he proved me wrong and I'm sure Jarvis Jones will eventually do that to his naysayers.

[QUOTE=Dee Dub;559994]Ok then explain the 28 sacks in the SEC over the past two years? I think that right there is the epitome of a true pass rusher. ;)[/QUOTE]

:Agree

and btw, that is a really cool sig pic of Jarvis Jones! :cool:

[QUOTE=Dee Dub;559994]Ok then explain the 28 sacks in the SEC over the past two years? I think that right there is the epitome of a true pass rusher. ;)[/QUOTE]

Dude, I LOVE that picture of Jarvis Jones...may I use that as well?

Jones is the next great NFL pass rusher.

He is damn good coming off the edge, so as a pure pass rusher yes I think he fills the bill. This kid was a top 5 pick months ago until they discovered his medical history. If any team can get past the medical concerns they probably have a good football player who will cause havoc on QB's and creating turnovers.

I hear teams like the Saints and Jets are interested in him, so there is no guarantee he falls to us.

OK ... gotta make sure everyone is hearing where I am coming from. I'm not saying JONES will be a bust, etc. I think the guys motor is amazing and I will admit he's gotta better 1st step than Timmons. BUT is he a 15plus sack guy at Weakside OLB or is he more of a tweener like TIMMONS?? Timmons can play ball in the NFL, just not at LOLB.

I'm a little hesitant to give Jones elite props for any of his stats the last two years. He did it as a 22 & 23 year old in college. There are Pros doing it as 20-23 and making ProBowls. A guy like Aldon Smith tallied 14 & 19.5 sacks as a 22 & 23 year old in the NFL. I'm more impressed with a kid that comes in as an 18 year old true freshman or a 19 year old redshirt freshman and gives you three years of production. Add in the injury concern...I'm not crowning him a can't miss.

As a 20 year old true freshman (Which also draws concerns) he couldn't crack the starting line-up at USC. In '09 he went 13 tackles & 1.5 TFL with no sacks in 8 games before his injury. He couldn't beat on 19 year old freshman Nick Perry or Junior Eversen Griffin. Sits out '10 on transfer. Jones has two monsterous seasons at Georgia..There is no doubting that stats wise.

There are concerns for me beyond that as a 3-4 OLB at the next level. There are alot of Jones lovers in here & I will get grief for it. A healthy scratch at the combine wouldn't have bothered me.... But then you see why at his proday. Reports of poor work ethic. Some of the same people that soured on Moore because of his 40 are the same who look past Jones's 40, cone, and position workouts. I understand people have their favorites but you have to do your due diligence and go back now becasue you know what to look for. He isn't strong at the point of attack and isn't explosive in a short area changing direction. Doesn't show me long speed and isn't a sideline to sideline player from weak side. He has the size of a weak side but speed of strong side with lack of strength at point of attack. When he gets tied up with blockers he doesn't have the speed to recover. Because of his weaknesses shown and his limited growth potential...There is cause for concern.

Mike Mayock is one of the highly regarded draft guys. I will be fair to show I'm not bashing on Jones. Mayock has Patterson rated @ #30 now. He was high on Patterson and had him rated as the #1 WR & a top 15 prospect. He dropped him some because of the reports about Patterson's concerns of picking up an offense. I would tell you to bet on Mayock but I am my own person and do my own homework. I have been high on Patterson since Feb. and I won't change. I have seen enough on him on option routes & reading coverage to not worry about his football IQ. There have been elite talent coming out as of late that had the same concerns & low wonderlics and excelled in the NFL. I can't do my own interview and won't sway my judgement by reports that may be smoke. If I am wrong, it will be because of this. I said the only question was his football IQ from the beginning.

To tie Mayock in to Jones. Mayock has Jones rated as his 19th prospect. But he also has Jones as a 4-3 OLB because of the concerns listed above. May be too small and weak at the point of attack to be a 4-3 DE with limited growth potential. May be to heavy footed to place in space and set the edge against the run as a 3-4 OLB. Jones DOES show some great instincts to be around the ball and diagnose plays. If you cover him up, he could really excel. Again, his heavy feet may limit him from being inside in a 3-4 so hence the projection as a 4-3 OLB. May be a great SAM if covered up but may not have the foot speed to be a WIL. I'm still not sure he can't be a WIL because his instincts and recognition could compensate.


That all being said....If Jones is selected by the Steelers...I will pull for him like everyone else. As long as there is a Steeler helmet on a guy...He is OK by me. I would welcome him to prove me wrong.

Everyone says Jones is the guy but like JPN said.. he looks undersized.

[QUOTE=JUST-PLAIN-NASTY;560048]I'm a little hesitant to give Jones elite props for any of his stats the last two years. He did it as a 22 & 23 year old in college. There are Pros doing it as 20-23 and making ProBowls. A guy like Aldon Smith tallied 14 & 19.5 sacks as a 22 & 23 year old in the NFL. I'm more impressed with a kid that comes in as an 18 year old true freshman or a 19 year old redshirt freshman and gives you three years of production. Add in the injury concern...I'm not crowning him a can't miss.

As a 20 year old true freshman (Which also draws concerns) he couldn't crack the starting line-up at USC. In '09 he went 13 tackles & 1.5 TFL with no sacks in 8 games before his injury. He couldn't beat on 19 year old freshman Nick Perry or Junior Eversen Griffin. Sits out '10 on transfer. Jones has two monsterous seasons at Georgia..There is no doubting that stats wise.

There are concerns for me beyond that as a 3-4 OLB at the next level. There are alot of Jones lovers in here & I will get grief for it. A healthy scratch at the combine wouldn't have bothered me.... But then you see why at his proday. Reports of poor work ethic. Some of the same people that soured on Moore because of his 40 are the same who look past Jones's 40, cone, and position workouts. I understand people have their favorites but you have to do your due diligence and go back now becasue you know what to look for. He isn't strong at the point of attack and isn't explosive in a short area changing direction. Doesn't show me long speed and isn't a sideline to sideline player from weak side. He has the size of a weak side but speed of strong side with lack of strength at point of attack. When he gets tied up with blockers he doesn't have the speed to recover. Because of his weaknesses shown and his limited growth potential...There is cause for concern.

Mike Mayock is one of the highly regarded draft guys. I will be fair to show I'm not bashing on Jones. Mayock has Patterson rated @ #30 now. He was high on Patterson and had him rated as the #1 WR & a top 15 prospect. He dropped him some because of the reports about Patterson's concerns of picking up an offense. I would tell you to bet on Mayock but I am my own person and do my own homework. I have been high on Patterson since Feb. and I won't change. I have seen enough on him on option routes & reading coverage to not worry about his football IQ. There have been elite talent coming out as of late that had the same concerns & low wonderlics and excelled in the NFL. I can't do my own interview and won't sway my judgement by reports that may be smoke. If I am wrong, it will be because of this. I said the only question was his football IQ from the beginning.

To tie Mayock in to Jones. Mayock has Jones rated as his 19th prospect. But he also has Jones as a 4-3 OLB because of the concerns listed above. May be too small and weak at the point of attack to be a 4-3 DE with limited growth potential. May be to heavy footed to place in space and set the edge against the run as a 3-4 OLB. Jones DOES show some great instincts to be around the ball and diagnose plays. If you cover him up, he could really excel. Again, his heavy feet may limit him from being inside in a 3-4 so hence the projection as a 4-3 OLB. May be a great SAM if covered up but may not have the foot speed to be a WIL. I'm still not sure he can't be a WIL because his instincts and recognition could compensate.


That all being said....If Jones is selected by the Steelers...I will pull for him like everyone else. As long as there is a Steeler helmet on a guy...He is OK by me. I would welcome him to prove me wrong.[/QUOTE] Bravo!! Thank you for the insight. I've watched his highlights and can't say I've been into the draft this year b/c I haven't. I see a 4-3 OLB here, not a dominant LOLB.

My two cents, and worth about that much, is that Damontre Moore is getting killed for being slow, weak, etc... But Jones has the same issues and is 3 years older.

I'm not saying we should draft either one at 17, but why is Moore getting crucified for the same issues as Jones? Moore played in the SEC this year and dominated.

Both seem to have poor work ethics.

Based on Jarvis Jones' game tape against Alabama and scouting video of Moore;

Jones has the burst that an NFL pass rusher needs while Demontre Moore gets to QBs with good angles and hand placement. Some scouts don't see Moore as being able to beat NFL caliber linemen.

The knock I have on Jones is his trouble stacking and shedding. After coming out early and beating a tackle for a strip-sack, he was targeted against Alabama as they ran successfully his direction repeatedly. I think he needs to get stronger.

I do think that the Steelers like him and if he's there, he's likely the pick.

[QUOTE=blacknblue80s;560138]Based on Jarvis Jones' game tape against Alabama and scouting video of Moore;

Jones has the burst that an NFL pass rusher needs while Demontre Moore gets to QBs with good angles and hand placement. Some scouts don't see Moore as being able to beat NFL caliber linemen.

The knock I have on Jones is his trouble stacking and shedding. After coming out early and beating a tackle for a strip-sack, he was targeted against Alabama as they ran successfully his direction repeatedly. I think he needs to get stronger.

I do think that the Steelers like him and if he's there, he's likely the pick.[/QUOTE]

Interesting analysis. That is one of the only times I've heard someone really differentiate them. I think Jones is going to have trouble turning the edge against NFL tackles. Moore may have the same issue as well.

If you watch a lot of his sacks, they're in pursuit b/c of coverage. I saw 1 sack where he was manned up against a LT, he basically slows down, gets the LT to stop his feet and then bursts around him for a sack. Very clever. but I still haven't seen him just flat out beat anyone with strength, just speed. Maybe I'm missing something

I liked him at first, then I didn't, and then I did, and now meh?

I do like his hustle and the way he goes after the ball. Seems like a smart player. But using Ovi-logic, at his age he'll be on the verge of retirement before he learns DL's system.

Timmons WOWED scouts with his timed and field speed. Jones ran a [SIZE=5]4.92[/SIZE] 40 at his Pro Day. Though he does seem to have field speed.

[QUOTE=Shoe;560214]Timmons WOWED scouts with his timed and field speed. Jones ran a [SIZE=5]4.92[/SIZE] 40 at his Pro Day. Though he does seem to have field speed.[/QUOTE]

One of my favorite memories was watching Timmons run past Troy (who had the angle) to make a tackle on a WR. I don't see Jarvis having that much field speed. Not even close.

What's interesting is Smythe is making the case, Jones has speed but no power. But I'm not sure he even has the speed.

I do think he's got passion for the game and a strong desire to take away the football which reminds me a little of Harrison. But that's about it. I'm back on the Jones seems risky train. He'll either be great or horrible. But nowhere in the middle.

[QUOTE=flippy;560216]One of my favorite memories was watching Timmons run past Troy (who had the angle) to make a tackle on a WR. I don't see Jarvis having that much field speed. Not even close.

What's interesting is Smythe is making the case, Jones has speed but no power. But I'm not sure he even has the speed.

I do think he's got passion for the game and a strong desire to take away the football which reminds me a little of Harrison. But that's about it. I'm back on the Jones seems risky train. He'll either be great or horrible. But nowhere in the middle.[/QUOTE] I never looked at his highlights until the other night. I was expecting to be "Wow'd" at his pass rush ability from the edge and I wasn't. If we were looking for a 4-3 OLB i'd think differently.

[QUOTE=SidSmythe;560229]I never looked at his highlights until the other night. I was expecting to be "Wow'd" at his pass rush ability from the edge and I wasn't. If we were looking for a 4-3 OLB i'd think differently.[/QUOTE]

I think he'll be gone before we pick. If he's there, I think the Steelers avoid him cause of age. If we take him, wonder if we could try to move Worilds inside?

[QUOTE=JUST-PLAIN-NASTY;560048]Mike Mayock is one of the highly regarded draft guys. I will be fair to show I'm not bashing on Jones. Mayock has Patterson rated @ #30 now. He was high on Patterson and had him rated as the #1 WR & a top 15 prospect. He dropped him some because of the reports about Patterson's concerns of picking up an offense. I would tell you to bet on Mayock but I am my own person and do my own homework. I have been high on Patterson since Feb. and I won't change. I have seen enough on him on option routes & reading coverage to not worry about his football IQ. There have been elite talent coming out as of late that had the same concerns & low wonderlics and excelled in the NFL. I can't do my own interview and won't sway my judgement by reports that may be smoke. If I am wrong, it will be because of this. I said the only question was his football IQ from the beginning.

To tie Mayock in to Jones. Mayock has Jones rated as his 19th prospect. But he also has Jones as a 4-3 OLB because of the concerns listed above. May be too small and weak at the point of attack to be a 4-3 DE with limited growth potential. May be to heavy footed to place in space and set the edge against the run as a 3-4 OLB. Jones DOES show some great instincts to be around the ball and diagnose plays. If you cover him up, he could really excel. Again, his heavy feet may limit him from being inside in a 3-4 so hence the projection as a 4-3 OLB. May be a great SAM if covered up but may not have the foot speed to be a WIL. I'm still not sure he can't be a WIL because his instincts and recognition could compensate.[/QUOTE]

Just watched Mayock's final mock draft special on NFL Network, and he projected Jarvis Jones to the Steelers. One surprise is that Star Lotulelei was still on the board and went to Dallas one pick later. I've been a Jones guy all along, but in the extremely unlikely event that Star happens to be on the board, I think I have to go with the guy who has been compared somewhat favorable to Haloti Ngata.

[QUOTE=RuthlessBurgher;560242]Just watched Mayock's final mock draft special on NFL Network, and he projected Jarvis Jones to the Steelers. One surprise is that Star Lotulelei was still on the board and went to Dallas one pick later. I've been a Jones guy all along, but in the extremely unlikely event that Star happens to be on the board, I think I have to go with the guy who has been compared somewhat favorable to Haloti Ngata.[/QUOTE]

If Star drops, that's a no brainer pick. We talk about how guys like Heath or Decastro fell to us. This would be one of the luckiest happenings in recent Steelers draft history. I cannot fathom him falling to us let alone past us.

[QUOTE=RuthlessBurgher;560242]Just watched Mayock's final mock draft special on NFL Network, and he projected Jarvis Jones to the Steelers. One surprise is that Star Lotulelei was still on the board and went to Dallas one pick later. I've been a Jones guy all along, but in the extremely unlikely event that Star happens to be on the board, I think I have to go with the guy who has been compared somewhat favorable to Haloti Ngata.[/QUOTE]

I saw that as well. Star seems to be a no-brainer if he's there.

BTW- in Mayock's mock, Eifert goes to the Jets at #13. I didn't think I'd see think I'd see the mock with Eifert going six picks ahead of Star Lotulelei.