[url]http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/10/7/4808418/steelers-head-coach-mike-tomlin-history-hot-seat-bill-cowher[/url]
Printable View
[url]http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/10/7/4808418/steelers-head-coach-mike-tomlin-history-hot-seat-bill-cowher[/url]
I posted something very similar and was pooh-poohed...
But, apparently, I'm not the only one to observe this...
Me and you both have been debating this. And a surprising fact that I found. Through 4 games the Steelers have only 18 penalties the least for the team since 2006, so obviously they ain't that terrible in not being prepared like some argue.
It's not simply about inheriting the players . It's the continuous sloppy play and questionable "in game" coaching decisions. It's being prepared to play.... some players look confused. It seems like Tomlin is the dumbest coach & the smartest coach (if that makes sense) at the same time. I think he needs to stop overthinking some things and use some common sense. I think there is clearly a lack of leadership especially from a player standpoint.
It's the fact that over 7 years, very few of the "replacements" developed. The ones that are starters, you'd have to question their quality of play. Even 1st round picks (Heyward, Hood) aren't producing at Hoke, Aaron Smith (tough to match), Kemo levels. Look at our depth across the team.... ts depleted. I remember the days when you could tell guys were going to be beasts when given the opportunity to play on a full time basis. You can't have 1st round picks across the board. At some point, you have to develop your team.
[QUOTE=steelz09;577765]It's not simply about inheriting the players . It's the continuous sloppy play and questionable "in game" coaching decisions. It's being prepared to play.... some players look confused. It seems like Tomlin is the dumbest coach & the smartest coach (if that makes sense) at the same time. I think he needs to stop overthinking some things and use some common sense. I think there is clearly a lack of leadership especially from a player standpoint.
It's the fact that over 7 years, very few of the "replacements" developed. The ones that are starters, you'd have to question their quality of play. Even 1st round picks (Heyward, Hood) aren't producing at Hoke, Aaron Smith (tough to match), Kemo levels. Look at our depth across the team.... ts depleted. I remember the days when you could tell guys were going to be beasts when given the opportunity to play on a full time basis. You can't have 1st round picks across the board. At some point, you have to develop your team.[/QUOTE]
How did Aaron SMith, Hoke and Kemo look like there first 3 years in the league? No snark.. serious question. I know they were drafted higher than our vets and that should also be used when evaluating them.
[QUOTE=Steelhere10;577763]Me and you both have been debating this. And a surprising fact that I found. Through 4 games the Steelers have only 18 penalties the least for the team since 2006, so obviously they ain't that terrible in not being prepared like some argue.[/QUOTE]
Penalties is a small portion of that.
It's another BS article from the same group. I've posted this before but here it goes again:
Again, Cowher had 3 players (one of which missed the entire SB season) and a couple of offensive players. 99% of which would be gone by this time in Tomlin's tenure. Cowher restocked the entire defense but those guys. Tomlin didn't restock anything. He had almost the EXACT same team as the SB team under Cowher. He replaced 3 people. Cowher replaced 8 just on the defense. The SB team of 95 was NOT stocked with Noll's talent. It just wasn't. 5 players no matter how good they are doesn't represent a full cupboard.
Just to see how silly this is here is the starting lineup for the 95 SB:
O'Donnell: Rookie in Noll's last year.
Pegram- FA picked up by Cowher
Williams- FA picked up by Cowher
Mills- Rookie during Noll's last season. Had 3 receptions.
Thigpen- Noll
Bruener- Cowher
Jackson- Noll
Newberry- FA picked up by Cowher
Dawson- Noll
Stai- Cowher
Searcy- Cowher
Buckner- Cowher
Steed- Cowher
Seals- FA by Cowher
Greene- FA by Cowher
Kirkland- Cowher
Brown- Cowher
Lloyd- Noll
Williams- Cowher
Lake- Noll
Bell- Cowher
Perry- Cowher
Woodson played some in the SB but was lost for the entire year. So 7 players, 2 of whom were rookies in Noll's last year, are the great "cupboard" that was left Cowher? Tomlin had 8 in his 5th year just on defense ALONE. Sorry, I don't see how anyone can say Cowher was left with a lot of talent. He had 3 really good defensive players and a couple of good OL. He had to replace 3 OL, ALL the RBs, ALL the DL, ALL but one of the LBers, and most of the CBs. It isn't even close to what Tomlin had.
[QUOTE=feltdizz;577766]How did Aaron SMith, Hoke and Kemo look like there first 3 years in the league? No snark.. serious question. I know they were drafted higher than our vets and that should also be used when evaluating them.[/QUOTE]
That's another problem. 1st round picks shouldn't take 3 to 4 years to "develop". It's one thing if it takes 3 years for a good player to become a great player/playmaker. Timmons is another example.
[QUOTE=steelz09;577771]That's another problem. 1st round picks shouldn't take 3 to 4 years to "develop". It's one thing if it takes 3 years for a good player to become a great player/playmaker. Timmons is another example.[/QUOTE]
maybe it's the scheme? We draft players and break them down and build them back up instead of letting them come in and do what made them attractive in college.
[QUOTE=feltdizz;577774]maybe it's the scheme? We draft players and break them down and build them back up instead of letting them come in and do what made them attractive in college.[/QUOTE]
No... It has nothing to do with the 3-4 scheme and it's not just the defense either.
For some reason, the only position that we've had success developing is WR.
[QUOTE=Vader;577769]It's another BS article from the same group. I've posted this before but here it goes again:
Again, Cowher had 3 players (one of which missed the entire SB season) and a couple of offensive players. 99% of which would be gone by this time in Tomlin's tenure. Cowher restocked the entire defense but those guys. Tomlin didn't restock anything. He had almost the EXACT same team as the SB team under Cowher. He replaced 3 people. Cowher replaced 8 just on the defense. The SB team of 95 was NOT stocked with Noll's talent. It just wasn't. 5 players no matter how good they are doesn't represent a full cupboard.
Just to see how silly this is here is the starting lineup for the 95 SB:
O'Donnell: Rookie in Noll's last year.
Pegram- FA picked up by Cowher
Williams- FA picked up by Cowher
Mills- Rookie during Noll's last season. Had 3 receptions.
Thigpen- Noll
Bruener- Cowher
Jackson- Noll
Newberry- FA picked up by Cowher
Dawson- Noll
Stai- Cowher
Searcy- Cowher
Buckner- Cowher
Steed- Cowher
Seals- FA by Cowher
Greene- FA by Cowher
Kirkland- Cowher
Brown- Cowher
Lloyd- Noll
Williams- Cowher
Lake- Noll
Bell- Cowher
Perry- Cowher
Woodson played some in the SB but was lost for the entire year. So 7 players, 2 of whom were rookies in Noll's last year, are the great "cupboard" that was left Cowher? Tomlin had 8 in his 5th year just on defense ALONE. Sorry, I don't see how anyone can say Cowher was left with a lot of talent. He had 3 really good defensive players and a couple of good OL. He had to replace 3 OL, ALL the RBs, ALL the DL, ALL but one of the LBers, and most of the CBs. It isn't even close to what Tomlin had.[/QUOTE]
The point isn't how much or how little each coach had...
Did Tomlin inherit more players? Sure...he also accomplished more in his first six seasons with "inherited players" than Cowher did...
The similarity lies in what happened [U][I]after[/I][/U] the "inherited players" started to depart...the results have been similiar with both coaches...
If you are saying that Cowher "restocked the cupboard" with his own players during those first six seasons, that makes him look [B]EVEN WORSE [/B]during the three year playoff absence...
[QUOTE=feltdizz;577766]How did Aaron SMith, Hoke and Kemo look like there first 3 years in the league? No snark.. serious question. I know they were drafted higher than our vets and that should also be used when evaluating them.[/QUOTE]
I remember Smith showing flashes early when he was on the field. He believe he got some snaps first in a rotation or as a backup and impressed, leading to him getting the starting gig. I also remember him being a bit smaller for a 3-4 DE initially and adding strenght.
I don't remember much about Hoke early on. KVO first played at NT for the Steelers, and he was bad. He was much better when he was moved to DE.
[QUOTE=phillyesq;577779]I remember Smith showing flashes early when he was on the field. He believe he got some snaps first in a rotation or as a backup and impressed, leading to him getting the starting gig. I also remember him being a bit smaller for a 3-4 DE initially and adding strenght.
I don't remember much about Hoke early on. KVO first played at NT for the Steelers, and he was bad. He was much better when he was moved to DE.[/QUOTE]
Hokie spent his entire first season on the PS...
KVO played NT for LeBeau in Cincinnati...the story goes that the FO asked Dermontti Dawson for his opinion on Kemo and he said that Kemo was tough...
[QUOTE=feltdizz;577774]maybe it's the scheme? We draft players and break them down and build them back up instead of letting them come in and do what made them attractive in college.[/QUOTE]
Well, you are getting your wish on this one with this year's No. 1 pick. JJ hired to do exactly what he did in college....
[QUOTE=Slapstick;577777]The point isn't how much or how little each coach had...
Did Tomlin inherit more players? Sure...he also accomplished more in his first six seasons with "inherited players" than Cowher did...
The similarity lies in what happened [U][I]after[/I][/U] the "inherited players" started to depart...the results have been similiar with both coaches...
If you are saying that Cowher "restocked the cupboard" with his own players during those first six seasons, that makes him look [B]EVEN WORSE [/B]during the three year playoff absence...[/QUOTE]
Tomlin did more with inherited players because he inherited BETTER players and more of them. Also did Tomlin go through a power struggle with the GM? Did Tomlin have to deal with FAs leaving because the STeelers couldn't afford to play them? Did Tomlin have to deal with pre-Heinz field budgets? Did Tomlin have to deal with a team that didn't have a franchise QB? It's stupid to think they had any similarities other than being a Steeler HC. Things were different back then but people forget that so they can build Tomlin up.
[QUOTE=feltdizz;577774]maybe it's the scheme? We draft players and break them down and build them back up instead of letting them come in and do what made them attractive in college.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you can blame it on scheme. Gildon, Porter, Emmons and Haggans among other were all developed. There were Steve Conleys as well, but a much better success rate than Chris Carter, Bruce Davis and Jason Worilds.
Smith and Keisel were excellent examples of guys who developed, as was Orpheus Roye.
Ike Taylor took time to develop, as a raw athlete out of a small school. Hopefully Cortez Allen will.
[QUOTE=Vader;577784] It's stupid to think they had any similarities other than being a Steeler HC. [/QUOTE]
...and the fact that they struggled after starting to lose their inherited players...
[QUOTE=Vader;577784]Tomlin did more with inherited players because he inherited BETTER players and more of them. Also did Tomlin go through a power struggle with the GM? Did Tomlin have to deal with FAs leaving because the STeelers couldn't afford to play them? Did Tomlin have to deal with pre-Heinz field budgets? Did Tomlin have to deal with a team that didn't have a franchise QB? It's stupid to think they had any similarities other than being a Steeler HC. Things were different back then but people forget that so they can build Tomlin up.[/QUOTE]
I think most are willing to give Tomlin time to fail...
He inherited a good team and a franchise QB.. and we won a SB and appeared in another. The guy hasn't even had a losing season on the books and you are acting like we are on a 5 year playoff drought.
[QUOTE=NorthCoast;577783]Well, you are getting your wish on this one with this year's No. 1 pick. JJ hired to do exactly what he did in college....[/QUOTE]
and I expect good things from him and I'm thankful he is starting.
Tomlin just needs some leaders on the field. Ben and Troy are great players but not great leaders of men.
[QUOTE=Slapstick;577786]...and the fact that they struggled after starting to lose their inherited players...[/QUOTE]
You can't be this obtuse. Cowher lost players to FAs. Not because he lost Noll's players. Again just look at the numbers. He had 3 players from Noll's team on defense in 95. He won without Noll's players in 4 years. Tomlin's best players are STILL from Cowher's time.
[QUOTE=feltdizz;577789]I think most are willing to give Tomlin time to fail...
He inherited a good team and a franchise QB.. and we won a SB and appeared in another. The guy hasn't even had a losing season on the books and you are acting like we are on a 5 year playoff drought.[/QUOTE]
They haven't missed the playoff 5 straight years but they haven't won a playoff game since 2010 against the Jets. They lost to one of the worst QBs to ever play a playoff game in Tim Tebow 2 years ago. I don't like the direction of this team and I don't like the Tomlin/Colbert team when it comes to drafting. I'm not saying to fire Tomlin. I don't like the direction but he should have time to straighten it out.
[QUOTE=Vader;577793]You can't be this obtuse. Cowher lost players to FAs. Not because he lost Noll's players. Again just look at the numbers. He had 3 players from Noll's team on defense in 95. He won without Noll's players in 4 years. Tomlin's best players are STILL from Cowher's time.
They haven't missed the playoff 5 straight years but they haven't won a playoff game since 2010 against the Jets. They lost to one of the worst QBs to ever play a playoff game in Tim Tebow 2 years ago. I don't like the direction of this team and I don't like the Tomlin/Colbert team when it comes to drafting. I'm not saying to fire Tomlin. I don't like the direction but he should have time to straighten it out.[/QUOTE]
Eerily similar to losing in the afccg to harbaugh. Or letting a very young Tom Brady come in for an injured Drew Bledsoe to beat you at home. Cowher had a number of issues. The afc championship game was his nightmare. Regardless of talent.
[QUOTE=Vader;577793]You can't be this obtuse. Cowher lost players to FAs. Not because he lost Noll's players. Again just look at the numbers. He had 3 players from Noll's team on defense in 95. He won without Noll's players in 4 years. Tomlin's best players are STILL from Cowher's time.
They haven't missed the playoff 5 straight years but they haven't won a playoff game since 2010 against the Jets. They lost to one of the worst QBs to ever play a playoff game in Tim Tebow 2 years ago. I don't like the direction of this team and I don't like the Tomlin/Colbert team when it comes to drafting. I'm not saying to fire Tomlin. I don't like the direction but he should have time to straighten it out.[/QUOTE]
I agree with a change in philosophy... I just wish our owner didn't tamper with the coaching staff after a playoff appearance.
[QUOTE=Steelhere10;577763]Me and you both have been debating this. And a surprising fact that I found. Through 4 games the Steelers have only 18 penalties the least for the team since 2006, so obviously they ain't that terrible in not being prepared like some argue.[/QUOTE]
Have you compared any other year besides this one? I have seen the stats. There was an impressive fall off with Tomlin in the giveaway/takeaways and penalty yards. 4 games this season when we are 0-4? Yeah, I'm not really ready to ignore the rest of his career.
[QUOTE=birtikidis;577795]Eerily similar to losing in the afccg to harbaugh. Or letting a very young Tom Brady come in for an injured Drew Bledsoe to beat you at home. Cowher had a number of issues. The afc championship game was his nightmare. Regardless of talent.[/QUOTE]
What Harbaugh did he lose the AFCC game to? Also Cowher lost 3 AFCC games to teams that were later known to be cheating. The Broncos cheated the salary cap to keep their players. The pats* were caught in spying on teams. Has Tomlin ever had those issues?
[QUOTE=feltdizz;577796]I agree with a change in philosophy... I just wish our owner didn't tamper with the coaching staff after a playoff appearance.[/QUOTE]
Losing to Tim Tebow was a hell of a blow. BA was getting Rooney's $100 Million QB killed and not scoring points. They were 20th in the league in scoring which is horrible when you have a franchise QB. Haley's offense has been worse but that doesn't make BAs good.
This is why I posted several years ago that the org would be wise to bring Cowher in as a consultant during the off season to give some input on defensive player evaluations in both the draft and FA.
I knew this was not ever going to happen. BC was very satisfied where he was at and why not.
Anyway I notice that BC will be in the booth as a color commentator next Sunday. Hmm! Interesting. Watching games live and not from behind a desk in NY. Frankly, I am reading probably more into this than is there.
[QUOTE=steelz09;577776]No... It has nothing to do with the 3-4 scheme and it's not just the defense either.
For some reason, the only position that we've had success developing is WR.[/QUOTE]
Sorry but totally disagree. We take Def Tackles who usually made their money in college attacking through a one gap. We then "convert" them to "occupy blockers" to keep the LBs clean. We also take DEs who have good pass rushing credentials and "convert" them to OLB and add pass coverage responsibilities.
LeBeau's defense does not take them from college and put them in familiar positions.
[QUOTE=phillyesq;577785]I don't think you can blame it on scheme. Gildon, Porter, Emmons and Haggans among other were all developed. There were Steve Conleys as well, but a much better success rate than Chris Carter, Bruce Davis and Jason Worilds.
Smith and Keisel were excellent examples of guys who developed, as was Orpheus Roye.
Ike Taylor took time to develop, as a raw athlete out of a small school. Hopefully Cortez Allen will.[/QUOTE]
Was half the league playing the 3-4 looking for players that we usually had first dibs on when Gildon and Porter were developed? I would not count Emmons or Haggans as success stories.
The competition to find the undersized DEs to play 3-4 OLB is much greater than in the 90s.
[QUOTE=Vader;577812]Losing to Tim Tebow was a hell of a blow. BA was getting Rooney's $100 Million QB killed and not scoring points. They were 20th in the league in scoring which is horrible when you have a franchise QB. Haley's offense has been worse but that doesn't make BAs good.[/QUOTE]killed into the playoffs...
BA's offense wasnt grear but it was explosive and it worked with our D. Now we have dink and dunk, ball control, Ben still getting killed without the wins.
For the last 3 or 4 years fans on here have cried about Ben dying on the field. Its just the way he llays... he likes contact and isnt afraid to sacrifice his body to complete a pass. We had a good formula and screwed it up because fans and the owner wanted fantasy points.
[QUOTE=Oviedo;577822]Sorry but totally disagree. We take Def Tackles who usually made their money in college attacking through a one gap. We then "convert" them to "occupy blockers" to keep the LBs clean. We also take DEs who have good pass rushing credentials and "convert" them to OLB and add pass coverage responsibilities.
LeBeau's defense does not take them from college and put them in familiar positions.[/QUOTE]
...and thr reason WRs look good is because they aren't asked to be anything but a WR. We draft OL and ask them to learn all of the positions on the OL and play musical chairs and wonder why our OL stinks.
[QUOTE=Oviedo;577823]Was half the league playing the 3-4 looking for players that we usually had first dibs on when Gildon and Porter were developed? I would not count Emmons or Haggans as success stories.
The competition to find the undersized DEs to play 3-4 OLB is much greater than in the 90s.[/QUOTE]
Your right. The 3-4 defense is a proven failure....lol.
There are plenty of teams in the NFL that run a 3-4 and don't need to spend 1st rounders on their NT, DE and LBers....Maybe we just can't develop any of these guys like we used to. That "development" of lack thereof seems to be a common problem in that Tomlin-era. I'm sure Colbert suddenly forgot how to draft when Tomlin got hired.
[QUOTE=feltdizz;577830]...and thr reason WRs look good is because they aren't asked to be anything but a WR. We draft OL and ask them to learn all of the positions on the OL and play musical chairs and wonder why our OL stinks.[/QUOTE]
Your right about the o-line. I hate how Tomlin makes some of these guys learn all of these o-line positions when they haven't excelled at their primary position first.
[QUOTE=Vader;577793]You can't be this obtuse. Cowher lost players to FAs. Not because he lost Noll's players.[/QUOTE]
I'm not the one being obtuse here...
Tomlin had more players, Cowher had fewer, it doesn't matter...
If it's just coincidence that Tomlin his heading into a trough at about the same time Cowher did during his Steelers tenure, then so be it...
I just don't believe that...
[QUOTE=Oviedo;577822]Sorry but totally disagree. We take Def Tackles who usually made their money in college attacking through a one gap. We then "convert" them to "occupy blockers" to keep the LBs clean. We also take DEs who have good pass rushing credentials and "convert" them to OLB and add pass coverage responsibilities.
LeBeau's defense does not take them from college and put them in familiar positions.[/QUOTE]
Really need to start a new tune Oviedo. JJ was drafted and is playing the exact position he learned in college. Of course, you will argue he is being asked to do more things than rush the passer. Guess what, any player drafted is asked to do more in the pros than college. A pro team can only field 53 players and don't have the luxury of specialists at every position. Look how many people ripped DeMarcus Ware for being 'one dimensional' and not a complete player.
Did I just read the word obtuse on a Steelers message board? This place is true class. :)
[QUOTE=birtikidis;577795]Eerily similar to losing in the afccg to harbaugh. Or letting a very young Tom Brady come in for an injured Drew Bledsoe to beat you at home. Cowher had a number of issues. The afc championship game was his nightmare. Regardless of talent.[/QUOTE].................
$$
[QUOTE=Steelhere10;577756][URL]http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/10/7/4808418/steelers-head-coach-mike-tomlin-history-hot-seat-bill-cowher[/URL][/QUOTE]
Nice try Defeo, but sorry not buying it. What is missing is the sense of progress and growth Cowher brought in from day 1. Don't know why this goes unnoticed when BC is discussed.
The only similarity between the two is it was time for a coaching change and it was made. That's it.
VADER has spelled it out exactly the way it was in early Cowher.
So any comparisons of two totally different set of circumstances is absurd. Each coach has to be rated on exactly what has occurred during his tenure. With Cowher IMO it was steady continuous change in every phase of the game hopefully to achieve excellence. Now there does not seem to be this sense of progress. Although that is not a given yet.
It is possible that this current roster is actually stronger and loaded with more first rate players than the team Cowher inherited.[despite the loss of over a half dozen all pros the past few years] However, that is on paper. Maybe that is the problem. This team could very well be "paper champs" and that usually does not get it. Let's see if Tomlin can get this team off the paper and on the field.
About the only thing in the article that was a fact is Defeo said: "Hey, the Steelers are 2-9 in their last 11 games, dating back to Week 10 of 2012. They've been behind by two scores or more in 11 of their last 15 games."
This does not sound like progress. Let's see if Tomlin can turn this around.
[QUOTE=Shawn;577868]Did I just read the word obtuse on a Steelers message board? This place is true class. :)[/QUOTE]
No to mention the fact that this board has been rhadamanthine in its assessment of Colbert and the coaching staff. :p Just sayin...
Pappy
[QUOTE=papillon;577878]No to mention the fact that this board has been rhadamanthine in its assessment of Colbert and the coaching staff. :p Just sayin...
Pappy[/QUOTE]
At the risk of being ob- ob-2's something or other[does that have something to do with geomety]
Anyway, I did not think that rhad thing was a real word. I thought you just made it up. It's real all right, but I got a hunch it wont catch on.
How is that spelled anyhow? Is it E-I-E-I-O:D