Time for the Tomlin Conversation

[NorthCoast]

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2023/10/18/23922333/its-time-to-have-the-mike-tomlin-conversation-pittsburgh-steelers-nfl-bill-cowher-ben-roethlisberger

........ "Randy Fichtner looks like Bill Walsh next to Matt Canada....."

It's time to have the Mike Tomlin conversation
Story by Jarrett Bailey
15h

Since he took over as the head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers in 2007, Mike Tomlin has been a polarizing figure to the fan base. When Pittsburgh won in those early years, it was with Bill Cowher's team, according to his naysayers. To his strongest defenders, though, he can do no wrong, is not to blame for any of the Steelers issues, and should be the head coach until he decides he doesn't want to be- no questions asked. As per usual, the fairest assessment of Tomlin lies somewhere in the middle. So let's have the Mike Tomlin conversation- the good, the bad, the ugly- all of it. Because there are healthy helpings of all three.


Yes, whether you want to admit it or not, there has been a lot of good in Mike Tomlin's now-17 season stint with the Steelers. Pittsburgh has been to three AFC Championship games, two Super Bowls, and won Super Bowl XLIII in which Tomlin became the youngest head coach to win a Super Bowl at the time. He has the third-most wins of any active head coach, is 16th all-time in wins, and is ninth all-time in games over .500. On top of that, he has consistently raised the floor of the Steelers. In 2019 when Ben Roethlisberger was lost for the season with an elbow injury, Tomlin and the Steelers defense had the team sitting at 8-5 until a final three-week stretch that featured the likes of Baltimore and Buffalo was too much to get them into the playoffs. The Steelers also overcame a 2-6 record in 2022 with a rookie quarterback and finished the season by winning seven of their final nine games to get to 9-8.


All of those are remarkable feats, and Tomlin deserves his flowers for being one of the best coaches of the last two decades. The Steelers have remained one of the most respected organizations in sports throughout his tenure, and as long as Ben Roethlisberger was under center and Tomlin was wearing the headset, it felt like there was always a chance that they could get to the Super Bowl.


However, ever since 2016, the Steelers have been a mediocre franchise cosplaying as a contender, and relying on historical lure to keep fans engaged and hopeful.


This is a list of how the Steelers have finished their last six seasons:


2017: 13-3, lost in Divisional round
2018: 9-6-1, missed playoffs
2019: 8-8, missed playoffs
2020: 12-4, lost in Wildcard round
2021: 9-7-1, lost in Wildcard round
2022: 9-8, missed playoffs
Six years, three playoff berths, and no playoff wins. Now, obviously there is some context needed for a select few of these. The aforementioned Ben Roethlisberger injury in 2019 really handicapped the team and it's a miracle they won eight games- fair enough. And in 2021, the Steelers started 1-3 with a quarterback in Big Ben who was a shell of himself, and yet they rallied to make a playoff spot. They went on the road and faced a Chiefs team that was two tiers above them in every aspect of the game and got boat raced in a game in which everyone expected that result- fine.


The rest of these, though. There are no excuses. There is no excuse as to why Blake Bortles and the Jaguars waltzed into Pittsburgh and dropped 45 on the Steelers to send them home. There is no excuse for a Browns team who was riddled with Covid, and without their head coach, to still be able to come into Pittsburgh and drop 48 points. And there is certainly no excuse as to why a 7-2-1 team with Hall of Fame talents at quarterback, running back, and receiver fell out of the playoff picture completely.


There are more heartbreaking losses that predate 2017, though. The loss to Tim Tebow and the Broncos in 2012- that will hurt forever. The playoff loss to Denver in 2015, a bad loss to the Ravens in the 2014 Wildcard game- there isn't a shortage of losses in the playoffs that Pittsburgh should have won. And look, are they going to win every playoff game. No, that's an unrealistic expectation to have, and the occasional blunder happens to every team. The thing is that it isn't occasional for the Steelers, it's routine. Mike Tomlin is 8-9 in the playoffs, and five of those losses should have been games Pittsburgh won. His .471 winning percentage in the playoffs is the fourth worst amongst head coaches in the top 20 for wins all-time and places him behind the likes of Lovie Smith, John Fox, and Ken Wisenhunt in that category.


I?m not going to ramble on about the fact that Tomlin hasn't had a losing season because we hear enough about it. But for the non-Steelers fans reading this, the aforementioned losses and shortcomings are why Steelers fans have stopped caring about that feat. It can no longer be about just getting to the playoffs, or finishing the season with nine wins and patting themselves on the back for extending a meaningless record. No, for Tomlin and the Steelers, they need to start winning playoff games again. Because any other coach around the league would be let go for going through two presidential terms without so much as a single playoff win.


The lack of a coaching tree is something that Tomlin gets knocked for, as well, and it?s very fair. I see those on the other side who blame the Rooneys for the lack of quality coordinators, but I don't buy it. When Bill Cowher was the head coach, his coordinators included Jim Haslett, Dom Capers, Chan Gailey, Dick LeBeau, Mike Mularkey, and Ken Wisenhunt- all six went on to become head coaches.


For Tomlin, the only one of his coordinators that went on to become a head coach was Bruce Arians, but Arians was already a very well-established name around the league. The same can be said for Todd Haley, who was previously the head coach of the Kansas City Chiefs. Randy Fichtner left a lot to be desired, but he looks like Bill Walsh compared to Matt Canada. And on the defensive side of the ball, Teryl Austin was given the job rather than hiring Brian Flores as defensive coordinator. Tomlin's inability to bring in good coordinators has hurt the team. We can rightfully complain about Canada's incompetence, but Tomlin is the one who brough him back after last season, and he's the one that still hasn't fired him. At some point, this all comes back on him.


Is all of this to say that Mike Tomlin's seat should be scolding hot and that he should be fired after the Steelers next loss? No, of course not. But I would say, at the very least, his seat should be warm. Lack of pressure brings lack of motivation. Why should Tomlin go out and get top-tier coordinators if he knows he won't be fired regardless? Too much security is a bad thing, and the fact that a coach who hasn't won a playoff game since the 2016 season has arguably the most security of any coach in the league is indefensible. Right now, Tomlin is a college professor with tenure. There is no need for him to come up with new curriculum when he knows he isn't going anywhere. And for that reason, the fans have suffered.


We can acknowledge that Mike Tomlin is one of the all-time great coaches who will one day be in the Hall of Fame. But it's also time for everyone, not just fed up Steelers fans, to acknowledge his flaws- flaws that have become more visible in recent years as the game seemingly passes both him, and the franchise by.

[Djfan]

It's about 10 years late for this conversation

[WindyCitySteel]

There are more bad playoff losses than good playoff wins. Not one game they dominated from start to finish, win over mediocre, Tomlinson-less Chargers being the closest. The coach he goes up against Sunday has 1 fewer playoff win in 10 fewer seasons, but is ranked far below Tomlin in most public opinion polls.

For everyone who thinks he's a lock for the HOF, if they go another six years like the last six, it's highly unlikely.

2007:

Lost to Jax and Garrard at home, furious rally after being down 28-10 (this becomes a pattern of Tomlin Ball)

2008:

Beat 8-8 Chargers
Beat rookie HC/QB on great Troy INT and one big play to Holmes
Beat 4th seed 9-7 Cards with two of the most historic, once-in-a-lifetime plays to steal it late

2010:

Beat Ravens at home after trailing 21-7 early before Ravens implode
Hold off Mark Sanchez and the Jets after almost blowing 24-0 lead
Lose to Packers after early big deficit

2011:

Tebowed

2014:

Flaccoed

2015:

Bengals, led by backup QB, melt down and hand Steelers win late
Loss to geriatric Peyton Manning

2016:

Thump Matt Moore and Dolphins
Beat Alex Smith and Chiefs with 6 FGs, 0 TD
Blown out by Patriots

2017:

Bortlesed

2020:

Mayfielded

2021:

Blown out by KC

[feltdizz]

Tomlin should be 13-4 in playoff games? That's extremely unrealistic.

I get the frustration with the last 6 years and the Tebow loss will always haunt us because he sucked but this is a bit sensational as well.

From 2004 to 2012 we went to 4 AFCCG's and 3 SB's.. winning 2 SB's. That's a ridiculous run for a franchise. We were bound to have a frustrating playoff loss or 2 given how the team had to reload after our historic D aged out.

These last 6 years though, truly frustrating as a Steeler fan when it comes to playoff performances. Tomlin deserves a nice amount of blame for these failures but the roster construction, age of the QB and Shazier injury can't be ignored.

I do agree on Canada and Austin. Tomlin has failed to hire quality coordinators and its head scratching at times. Do we not have the money to lure talent or is Tomlin aging out of the game? Look at Hoodie. He went out and hired his buddy at OC this year and it's been a disaster. It's time to find the next young HC at the end of Tomlin's contract regardless of what happens on the field.

It's been a good run but I think he will be at 17 or 18 years at the end of the 2024 season. That's a long time for a coach in this league.

[NorthCoast]

Ya know, the Browns are doing exactly what Tomlin hoped to do this season. But they are doing it better; a top defense paired with a low scoring conservative offense. Let's see how that plays out this year.

[WindyCitySteel]

Tomlin should be 13-4 in playoff games? That's extremely unrealistic.


As unrealistic as losing home playoff games to David Garrard, Joe Flacco, Tim Tebow, Baker Mayfield, and Blake Bortles.

[feltdizz]

As unrealistic as losing home playoff games to David Garrard, Joe Flacco, Tim Tebow, Baker Mayfield, and Blake Bortles.

Those Jags teams were tough back in the day.

Tim Tebow is the one that stings.

Jags have always played us tough when they had playoff worthy teams. Losing to division rivals? That isn't uncommon.

You can focus on the QB's we lost to but those teams DEFENSES were usually why we lost in the playoffs.

2007 - 3 INT's and 1 fumble lost
2014 - 2 INT's and 1 fumble lost
2017 - 1 INT, 1 fumble returned for TD, 2 turnovers on downs
2020 - 4 INTs and 1 fumble recovered for a TD

That's a ridiculous level of turnovers by the offense.

[Joel Buchsbaum]

2017: 13-3, lost in Divisional round
2018: 9-6-1, missed playoffs
2019: 8-8, missed playoffs
2020: 12-4, lost in Wildcard round
2021: 9-7-1, lost in Wildcard round
2022: 9-8, missed playoffs
Six years, three playoff berths, and no playoff wins. Now, obviously there is some context needed for a select few of these. The aforementioned Ben Roethlisberger injury in 2019 really handicapped the team and it's a miracle they won eight games- fair enough. And in 2021, the Steelers started 1-3 with a quarterback in Big Ben who was a shell of himself, and yet they rallied to make a playoff spot. They went on the road and faced a Chiefs team that was two tiers above them in every aspect of the game and got boat raced in a game in which everyone expected that result- fine.



His .471 winning percentage in the playoffs is the fourth worst amongst head coaches in the top 20 for wins all-time and places him behind the likes of Lovie Smith, John Fox, and Ken Wisenhunt in that category. You know those EPIC head coaches. And he can go lower.

The team could not win a game in the playoffs since 2017. We had the talent. And we likely won't won one this year either. Enough excuses from the usual suspects. His contract is up in 2024. We need to get a new head coach.

[T.Ferguson]

I feel like I've read variations of "should his seat be getting warm now?" for about 6 or 7 years now on message boards and in articles (like this one). Why shouldn't it be scolding hot now? I don't get it, it's the same crap every year, it really feels like groundhogs day at this point, I just want a change please, the team needs a change.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Honestly, i dont think anyone here blindly thinks he is “the best” coach. The guy has flaws.

i think the lack of coaching tree is partly due to the preferred conservative approach to offense at a time when scoring is what everyone wants. With the killer B’s this team should have been in the AFCC annually with even a decent OC.

But, i still say that Tomlin is what we all knew. A great motivator who needs excellent coordinators. That’s how he can win rings.

Some like that. Some dont. But he is who we thought he was.

IMO, his most necessary skill to improve on is assessing OCs.

[WindyCitySteel]

Honestly, i dont think anyone here blindly thinks he is “the best” coach. The guy has flaws.

i think the lack of coaching tree is partly due to the preferred conservative approach to offense at a time when scoring is what everyone wants. With the killer B’s this team should have been in the AFCC annually with even a decent OC.

But, i still say that Tomlin is what we all knew. A great motivator who needs excellent coordinators. That’s how he can win rings.

Some like that. Some dont. But he is who we thought he was.

IMO, his most necessary skill to improve on is assessing OCs.

I think mostly it's Tomlin who doesn't like that. He has total control over all of his coordinators, none of whom are a threat to take his job.

[NorthCoast]

I think mostly it's Tomlin who doesn't like that. He has total control over all of his coordinators, none of whom are a threat to take his job.There's no threat to take his job. If the OC shines, he gets promoted to HC for another team and can build what he wants. I think Tomlin is just not very good at evaluating coordinators. Maybe trying to find ones that coach like he does instead of finding ones that are true teachers of the game. Remember when Juju left and said how much more he learned under Reid? Teaching is a talent of its own.

[feltdizz]

I think mostly it's Tomlin who doesn't like that. He has total control over all of his coordinators, none of whom are a threat to take his job.

Why do some people think a good OC would be a threat to Tomlin's job? That makes no sense at all based on the history of the organization.

[WindyCitySteel]

There's no threat to take his job. If the OC shines, he gets promoted to HC for another team and can build what he wants. I think Tomlin is just not very good at evaluating coordinators. Maybe trying to find ones that coach like he does instead of finding ones that are true teachers of the game. Remember when Juju left and said how much more he learned under Reid? Teaching is a talent of its own.

Munch was a threat, they could have easily promoted him. Should have kept Flores, but Tomlin couldn't control him like Austin, and he was also a threat.

Lackeys, lackeys as far as the eye can see.

[NorthCoast]

Why do some people think a good OC would be a threat to Tomlin's job? That makes no sense at all based on the history of the organization.Agreed. All the good ones got jobs elsewhere.

[feltdizz]

Munch was a threat, they could have easily promoted him. Should have kept Flores, but Tomlin couldn't control him like Austin, and he was also a threat.

Lackeys, lackeys as far as the eye can see.


Promoted Munchak to what? You aren't making any sense. You make it sound like Rooney can only promote coaches if they are in a 50 mile radius of the stadium.

Does Rooney not have email or long distance on his phone plan? Why couldn't Rooney call Munchak this summer to give him the head coaching job?

[Steel Maniac]

I hope Teflon Tommy stays another 3-5 years ; giving us the same stuff he’s given us the last couple of years. Love me some Teflon Tommy.

[hawaiiansteel]

I hope Teflon Tommy stays another 3-5 years ; giving us the same stuff he?s given us the last couple of years. Love me some Teflon Tommy.

since you believe the Steelers will fail with Tomlin, you're basically admitting that you want the Steelers to fail for the next 3-5 years just so you can beat your chest about being "right" since that's the most important thing in the world to you.

this shows everybody exactly the kind of guy you really are, pretty sad and pathetic.

[WindyCitySteel]

Promoted Munchak to what? You aren't making any sense. You make it sound like Rooney can only promote coaches if they are in a 50 mile radius of the stadium.

Does Rooney not have email or long distance on his phone plan? Why couldn't Rooney call Munchak this summer to give him the head coaching job?

Promote him to OC and he would have stayed. He's out of the game now helping with a football camp in PA and said he misses coaching. Think they give him a ring this winter? Lol, nope. Toss the 10-play playbook on Sully's desk and tell him to follow orders.

[Chadman]

It's not fair to lay blame in any one particular area though.

The most progressive OC under Tomlin, arguably, was Haley. And Ben essentially ran him out of town. As good as Ben was, he was also an ageing QB in the last few years. The OC's were picked to NOT upset Ben it seemed.

DC has been questionable for longer than people give credit for. The last few years of LeBeau were not great. The Steelers defence never overcame 2 things- the Shazier injury (which they have failed to replicate for years- one day they'll realise he was generational) & the Patriots/Brady picking the 3-4 apart & 'forcing' the Steelers to adopt package defence. Possibly add losing Polamalu to that too.

Yes, Tomlin oversaw all of it. And if you have a job/role that lasts nearly 20 years, you'll have your faults as well.

It could be time to move on. Or for Tomlin to re-imagine himself. He would last 3.5 minutes on the open market. He should be held accountable for co-ordinator choices. He should be given credit for his success too. I don't think Austin is the biggest problem, but Canada is woeful. Munchak should be OC/OL coach.

[Steel Maniac]

It's not fair to lay blame in any one particular area though.

The most progressive OC under Tomlin, arguably, was Haley. And Ben essentially ran him out of town. As good as Ben was, he was also an ageing QB in the last few years. The OC's were picked to NOT upset Ben it seemed.

DC has been questionable for longer than people give credit for. The last few years of LeBeau were not great. The Steelers defence never overcame 2 things- the Shazier injury (which they have failed to replicate for years- one day they'll realise he was generational) & the Patriots/Brady picking the 3-4 apart & 'forcing' the Steelers to adopt package defence. Possibly add losing Polamalu to that too.

Yes, Tomlin oversaw all of it. And if you have a job/role that lasts nearly 20 years, you'll have your faults as well.

It could be time to move on. Or for Tomlin to re-imagine himself. He would last 3.5 minutes on the open market. He should be held accountable for co-ordinator choices. He should be given credit for his success too. I don't think Austin is the biggest problem, but Canada is woeful. Munchak should be OC/OL coach.

I agree; Tomlin would last 3.5 seconds on the open market. On name recognition only because we have lazy owners who operate in that fashion. Like Mark Davis ( for example).

Norv Turner wasn’t getting anything done but he kept getting head coaching jobs too. There’s a “ good old boys “ network that I’m sure Tomlin’s in now at this point of his career. Doesn’t mean he gets the job done anywhere else though. How many guys who’ve been in the league as long as him reinvents themselves? They don’t. You are what you are after a decade as head coach.

Our coordinator hires have been terrible. But I’m not sure all that can be blamed on Tomlin. We to this day do not know how much say so he has in the hiring of the coordinators.

But for discussion sake , we can assume he does ; regardless , the hirings and firings have been to the detriment of this team. Especially OC.

The system they are using to determine HOW to get candidates for these positions is a failure.

[hawaiiansteel]

I hope Teflon Tommy stays another 3-5 years ; giving us the same stuff he?s given us the last couple of years. Love me some Teflon Tommy.

so being "right" is more important to you than the Steelers winning I see.

very sad and pathetic...

[T.Ferguson]

As far as coordinators go I thought Butler pretty much confirmed Tomlin runs the defense since Lebeau was pushed out, in fact I believe according to Butler he started running things around the time the Steelers embarrassingly lost to the Broncos and Tim Tebow in the playoffs in OT. Last 3 or 4 playoff games the Steelers have given up on average something like 45 points which still blows my mind, wtf.

Canada isn't an NFL coordinator and the only reason he's still with Pittsburgh is probably because Rooney doesn't want to pay him and another OC but it's also probable that he's running the kind of offense Tomlin wants. I believe he wants a conservative low scoring offense that putters around for 3 quarters while the defense keeps the score low, it's also why he loves those splash plays so much, he wants the offense to make a few of those a game and then play conservative and don't turn it over and call it a day while the defense carries the load. This is not a recipe for long term success, definitely not a recipe to win a SB.

[Eich]

I believe he wants a conservative low scoring offense that putters around for 3 quarters while the defense keeps the score low, it's also why he loves those splash plays so much, he wants the offense to make a few of those a game and then play conservative and don't turn it over and call it a day while the defense carries the

He may have created a situation that results in that but he doesn't want THAT. He doesn't want low scoring, puttering.

If I had to guess what Tomlin wants, based on his history, I'd say he wants a conservative, ball-control offense that wins the time of possession battle, limits turnovers, is able to impose its will on the other team by playing simple, smash-mouth, beat-your-man football and then throw in a few splash plays.

[WindyCitySteel]

He may have created a situation that results in that but he doesn't want THAT. He doesn't want low scoring, puttering.

If I had to guess what Tomlin wants, based on his history, I'd say he wants a conservative, ball-control offense that wins the time of possession battle, limits turnovers, is able to impose its will on the other team by playing simple, smash-mouth, beat-your-man football and then throw in a few splash plays.

Isn't that basically what T. Ferguson said? The Steelers, like many teams with no clue about offense, want to get to manageable 3rd downs and then convert them.

The serious contenders just gouge you all game, they don't have to manage 1st and 2nd down, they shred you on those downs and before you know it, you're down two scores and your game plan is out the window.

[Dwinsgames]

https://scontent.fpit1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/313841953_487593859988365_2911728037535286209_n.pn g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8cd0a2&_nc_ohc=XnGL7NDoP3UAX9PJYJZ&_nc_oc=AQlAVpMrLJ5DP8woc_8Cn7gUQy-zF6wqbA7hJQS4ccIHf5lDLDuRuxCSRDqcjcmYOvQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fpit1-1.fna&oh=03_AdQZ42xOTmQEMtcuwhIkrRuJ4PE2sewDFBnikZM-1gIqrA&oe=655C4133

[NorthCoast]

It's not fair to lay blame in any one particular area though.

The most progressive OC under Tomlin, arguably, was Haley. And Ben essentially ran him out of town. As good as Ben was, he was also an ageing QB in the last few years. The OC's were picked to NOT upset Ben it seemed.

DC has been questionable for longer than people give credit for. The last few years of LeBeau were not great. The Steelers defence never overcame 2 things- the Shazier injury (which they have failed to replicate for years- one day they'll realise he was generational) & the Patriots/Brady picking the 3-4 apart & 'forcing' the Steelers to adopt package defence. Possibly add losing Polamalu to that too.

Yes, Tomlin oversaw all of it. And if you have a job/role that lasts nearly 20 years, you'll have your faults as well.

It could be time to move on. Or for Tomlin to re-imagine himself. He would last 3.5 minutes on the open market. He should be held accountable for co-ordinator choices. He should be given credit for his success too. I don't think Austin is the biggest problem, but Canada is woeful. Munchak should be OC/OL coach.Actually there is one area that we can universally agree has led the Steelers to where they are. They have had very average drafts for about the last decade. In some years it was a significant negative to the team (Bush). If a team drafts average over a period of years then they end up with an average team (unless they have outstanding coaching or an elite HOF QB).

I also think Tomlin's style of coaching (i.e, work harder, not smarter) is falling behind some of these coaches that are good at the offensive side of the ball. Tomlin desperately needs to find the next great offensive mind as OC if they hope to get back to SB conversations.

EDIT: writeup is a couple years old but add the 2022 draft doesn't move the needle much if at all


https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33297949/nfl-draft-which-teams-gotten-best-value-2012-rank-all-32

[WindyCitySteel]

I also think Tomlin's style of coaching (i.e, work harder, not smarter) is falling behind some of these coaches that are good at the offensive side of the ball. Tomlin desperately needs to find the next great offensive mind as OC if they hope to get back to SB conversations.


He doesn't want that -- he wants a safe, conservative offense that minimizes turnovers so that defense can win the game. It's not 1976 anymore, don't think this will end well.

[T.Ferguson]

He may have created a situation that results in that but he doesn't want THAT. He doesn't want low scoring, puttering.

If I had to guess what Tomlin wants, based on his history, I'd say he wants a conservative, ball-control offense that wins the time of possession battle, limits turnovers, is able to impose its will on the other team by playing simple, smash-mouth, beat-your-man football and then throw in a few splash plays.

Conservative, ball control offense = low scoring. And for the Steelers to pull that off successfully they need specific players and coaching for that and I'm not sure the team has either, definitely not coaching.

I think a lot of what we are seeing now with this team leads back to the recent playoff losses and the turnovers in some of those games. I'm willing to bet that Tomlin blames the TO's for those losses and now is scared as hell that it will happen again, hence the kind of offense we see, Tomlin is not an offensive coach and instead of building a better offense or correcting those issues in a productive way he's instead gone the super conservative route. I remember a game this season when Pickett threw an INT and on the next series the play calling got even more conservative with like 2 or 3 runs in a row and a punt. He has become a super risk averse coach but in some ways this makes things actually more of a gamble or lowers the odds of winning some games.

[feltdizz]

Actually there is one area that we can universally agree has led the Steelers to where they are. They have had very average drafts for about the last decade. In some years it was a significant negative to the team (Bush). If a team drafts average over a period of years then they end up with an average team (unless they have outstanding coaching or an elite HOF QB).

I also think Tomlin's style of coaching (i.e, work harder, not smarter) is falling behind some of these coaches that are good at the offensive side of the ball. Tomlin desperately needs to find the next great offensive mind as OC if they hope to get back to SB conversations.

EDIT: writeup is a couple years old but add the 2022 draft doesn't move the needle much if at all


https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33297949/nfl-draft-which-teams-gotten-best-value-2012-rank-all-32


That article says the 2021 players won't have as much value because they haven't accumulated the stats, so a 2012 draft having better stats doesn't make it better.

I would think Pickens and Warren give the draft some positive value.

[feltdizz]

He doesn't want that -- he wants a safe, conservative offense that minimizes turnovers so that defense can win the game. It's not 1976 anymore, don't think this will end well.

Kenny is 10-7 as a starter. A pretty respectable record for a QB in his first 17 starts.


know some of you would prefer 7-10 with Kenny showing more flashes or more stats but that isn't good football IMO. People just need to have more patience with a young QB 5 games into his second season.

[WindyCitySteel]

Kenny is 10-7 as a starter. A pretty respectable record for a QB in his first 17 starts.


know some of you would prefer 7-10 with Kenny showing more flashes or more stats but that isn't good football IMO. People just need to have more patience with a young QB 5 games into his second season.

Some say don't judge guys until after 20 starts, we're rapidly approaching that. Need to see more of the mundane done consistently well.

[NorthCoast]

While the Steelers are having the conversation with Mike Tomlin he might kindly bring up one fact in his favor;

Mike Tomlin is the only HC in the SB era to have a winning record as an underdog.


Let's hope that means something in today's game.

[NorthCoast]

That article says the 2021 players won't have as much value because they haven't accumulated the stats, so a 2012 draft having better stats doesn't make it better.

I would think Pickens and Warren give the draft some positive value.Pickens should definitely. Warren won't... he was undrafted :D

[feltdizz]

Pickens should definitely. Warren won't... he was undrafted :D

oh snap.. lol. Damn these scouts

[Captain Lemming]

While the Steelers are having the conversation with Mike Tomlin he might kindly bring up one fact in his favor;

Mike Tomlin is the only HC in the SB era to have a winning record as an underdog.


Let's hope that means something in today's game.

It did my brother, it did.

[NorthCoast]

Bump.....

Rooney is hopefully working on the conversation script.

[NorthCoast]

It's time:https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53403202711_0dbb442bb9_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2pn4nCk)capture1 (https://flic.kr/p/2pn4nCk) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr

[Northern_Blitz]

Kenny is 10-7 as a starter. A pretty respectable record for a QB in his first 17 starts.


know some of you would prefer 7-10 with Kenny showing more flashes or more stats but that isn't good football IMO. People just need to have more patience with a young QB 5 games into his second season.

Mason was above 500 too.

But we didn't win because of Mason. We won in spite of Mason.

Re: Tomlin

I think he's a good coach. And relationships and keeping players engaged are his superpower. But this team is imploding. I'd explore trade options. If there's something on the table that's around what Gruden got (or between Gruden and Peyton) I think you have to seriously consider taking it. Especially if it gets you someone you think can be a franchise QB.

[Joel Buchsbaum]

[QUOTE=NorthCoast;980022]
https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2023/10/18/23922333/its-time-to-have-the-mike-tomlin-conversation-pittsburgh-steelers-nfl-bill-cowher-ben-roethlisberger

........ "Randy Fichtner looks like Bill Walsh next to Matt Canada....."


This is a list of how the Steelers have finished their last six seasons:


2017: 13-3, lost in Divisional round
2018: 9-6-1, missed playoffs
2019: 8-8, missed playoffs
2020: 12-4, lost in Wildcard round
2021: 9-7-1, lost in Wildcard round
2022: 9-8, missed playoffs
Six years, three playoff berths, and no playoff wins. Now, obviously there is some context needed for a select few of these. The aforementioned Ben Roethlisberger injury in 2019 really handicapped the team and it's a miracle they won eight games- fair enough. And in 2021, the Steelers started 1-3 with a quarterback in Big Ben who was a shell of himself, and yet they rallied to make a playoff spot. They went on the road and faced a Chiefs team that was two tiers above them in every aspect of the game and got boat raced in a game in which everyone expected that result- fine.

>>>> This is enough data by the way Tomlin DID NOT hire Arians.

The Steelers should either trade Tomlin if they can, or let him go. Those are Art Rooney's II options. Of course he can bring him back and risk losing say oh at least 10% of the Steeler fans. Anger will turn into apathy.


Enough is Enough. He can not / or no longer ( pick one ) coach well enough and it will be seven years and counting with NO playoff wins. The last head coach to do this was....um dead if there was such a man since the AFL-NFL merger.

[Eich]

I'm more than ready now to move on from Tomlin. BUT at the same time, I don't have a big issue if he stays - IF - significant changes are made on offense.

If we hired a proper offensive mind for the offensive coordinator position and Rooney instructed Tomlin to let the coordinator run the offense, we could be successful again IMO. If Tomlin wants to meddle in game planning, stick to the defensive side of the ball, where he's qualified.

At least they fired Canada. It shows that SOMEONE realizes that he was a mistake. If it was Rooney, then take the next step and bring in a real coordinator. If we just promote within again, I think we're in for another $hit show.

It'll be interesting to see what Rooney and Kahn do in the offseason. But it's very disappointing that we wasted an entire season to get here. I felt strongly last season that keeping Canada this year was a mistake that would set us back. And sadly, it was and did.

[whatever]

I'm more than ready now to move on from Tomlin. BUT at the same time, I don't have a big issue if he stays - IF - significant changes are made on offense.

If we hired a proper offensive mind for the offensive coordinator position and Rooney instructed Tomlin to let the coordinator run the offense, we could be successful again IMO. If Tomlin wants to meddle in game planning, stick to the defensive side of the ball, where he's qualified.

At least they fired Canada. It shows that SOMEONE realizes that he was a mistake. If it was Rooney, then take the next step and bring in a real coordinator. If we just promote within again, I think we're in for another $hit show.

It'll be interesting to see what Rooney and Kahn do in the offseason. But it's very disappointing that we wasted an entire season to get here. I felt strongly last season that keeping Canada this year was a mistake that would set us back. And sadly, it was and did.


I’m thinking Tomlin felt the heat and needed a scapegoat during the season instead of after.
I’m sure he told Rooney it was Canadas fault and would fire him immediately.
BUT then tell Rooney that he can’t be blamed for the rest of this season seeing there in no new OC until next year.
Then probably reminded Rooney that it takes a couple years to fully understand the new system so don’t hold me responsible for another couple years or until I can fool you again and blame someone else.

[Terrapin]

Barack Tomlin is much more interested in making political statements than football statements. Beyond time for this fraud to move on.

[NorthCoast]

?I?m at the stage of my career where I don?t care about contracts,? Mike Tomlin said. ?I acknowledge I?ve seen more days than I?m going to see. That?s just the nature of this thing. I?m appreciative of the opportunity. I?m singularly focused. I?m thankful I?m at the stage of my life and my career that it?s a non-issue for me.?_______________

[Eich]

?I?m at the stage of my career where I don?t care about contracts,? Mike Tomlin said. ?I acknowledge I?ve seen more days than I?m going to see. That?s just the nature of this thing. I?m appreciative of the opportunity. I?m singularly focused. I?m thankful I?m at the stage of my life and my career that it?s a non-issue for me.?

He needs to be singularly focused on hiring a competent offensive coordinator and staying the hell out of his way!

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Re: Tomlin

I think he's a good coach. And relationships and keeping players engaged are his superpower. But this team is imploding. I'd explore trade options. If there's something on the table that's around what Gruden got (or between Gruden and Peyton) I think you have to seriously consider taking it. Especially if it gets you someone you think can be a franchise QB.

I don't think coaches are "good coach" or "bad coach". I think it should be viewed more as things he does well, and things he doesn't do well. I'd say that right now we see a combination of Tomlin's act and energy being tired, and what he does well does not match this team.

What I mean by him being tired here is that a decade ago, he had a diva WR who was causing issues behind the scenes. Tomlin was able to manage the situation, keep the team together, and outside of thew locker room, other than a few whispers here and there, we were clueless about what was going on with a guy who we later find out is completely off his rocker. Now there is another WR, likely not a bats*** crazy as the last guy, who is causing bigger issues and out of control, everything happening going public, and Tomlin seems unable or unwilling to deal with it.

Hopefully someone out there thinks he could use a change of scenery, and makes a play for him. Let him move on, let him go elsewhere, and the Steelers start fresh, hopefully with an extra draft pick or two.

[whatever]

He needs to be singularly focused on hiring a competent offensive coordinator and staying the hell out of his way!

His ego won’t let him do that.

[Tank McGee]

I don't agree that he's a great coach, let alone one of the greatest of all time. He took an elite franchise and turned it into a joke.

[LPMAN]

His ego won?t let him do that.

Shocking how big his ego is when his team has had only 4 winning playoff years in the 18 years he has coached them.

Just for reference Cowher team won a playoff game in 8 of the 15 years he coached.

[WindyCitySteel]

Where you you rank Tomlin in the division? We have the worst starting QB in the division, but two starters are out and both Ohio teams are missing several other key players and are still better than the Steelers.

The Browns turned it over 3 times today with their backup QB and won, largely because their D had 8 3-outs.

Tired of the excuses -- everyone has injury problems, some worse than ours, and they're doing better.

Our coaching staff is JV.

[whatever]

Shocking how big his ego is when his team has had only 4 winning playoff years in the 18 years he has coached them.

Just for reference Cowher team won a playoff game in 8 of the 15 years he coached.

When you keep hearing how great your regular season record is, you continue to get away using a new scapegoat every year and you no fear of losing your job, the ego comes pretty easy.

[NorthCoast]

Honestly, i dont think anyone here blindly thinks he is ?the best? coach. The guy has flaws.

i think the lack of coaching tree is partly due to the preferred conservative approach to offense at a time when scoring is what everyone wants. With the killer B?s this team should have been in the AFCC annually with even a decent OC.

But, i still say that Tomlin is what we all knew. A great motivator who needs excellent coordinators. That?s how he can win rings.

Some like that. Some dont. But he is who we thought he was.

IMO, his most necessary skill to improve on is assessing OCs.Does Tomlin get credit for this coaching tree branch?



Former Steelers Offensive Lineman Lands NFL Coaching Gig

Former Pittsburgh Steelers offensive lineman Darnell Stapleton is joining the Washington Commanders coaching staff under new head coach Dan Quinn as their assistant offensive line coach. Stapleton joins the team after spending the last two seasons coaching Florida?s offensive line, where they produced multiple NFL players, most notably O?Cyrus Torrence.
He played with the Steelers from 2007 to 2009 and was undrafted out of Rutgers. But 2008 would be Stapleton?s biggest impact, as he played in 14 games and started 12 games at guard for the team. All of that helped power Pittsburgh that year, and Stapleton would become a Super Bowl champion as a result.

He was out of football officially in 2010 but quickly started up his coaching career. Stapleton started as the head coach of the New York Sharks of the Women?s Football Alliance and worked until he joined Rutgers as a graduate assistant in 2013. From there, Stapleton would become the offensive line coach at Bucknell, then Sam Houston State, and then Louisana under Billy Napier until he took the job at Florida. Now, Stapleton is heading to the NFL.
He is not the only former Steelers player on the staff, either. Former Steelers cornerbacks Jason Simmons and William Gay are also set to be on Quinn?s staff.