Has the game passed defensive minded coaches by?

[Joel Buchsbaum]

I think there is some truth to this. Quick name me the best head coaches hired. They mostly offensive guys. Another reason the part ways with the haven't won a playoff game in six years Mike Tomlin. With an offensive type of coach, you really don't lose the OC. It matters less who he is. Example Andy Reid, and Sean Mcvey. Even Matt Lafleur. Furthermore defensive coaches really do not hire good OC's. These days a good offense beats a good defense.

Thoughts?

[WindyCitySteel]

The rules don't let them do their jobs anymore. Receiver can run unmolested all over the field and you're not allowed to hit them hard. You're not allowed to hit QBs really at all anymore, and OL can hold on every single play without getting called.

Maybe LeBeau's "tackle the catch" was ahead of its time. That's basically all you can do now.

[Joel Buchsbaum]

The rules don't let them do their jobs anymore. Receiver can run unmolested all over the field and you're not allowed to hit them hard. You're not allowed to hit QBs really at all anymore, and OL can hold on every single play without getting called.

Maybe LeBeau's "tackle the catch" was ahead of its time. That's basically all you can do now.

So you agree that a good offensive coach is better suited for success in today's NFL? The rules as they say are the rules. When the NFL went to call more pass interference / you can't much receivers Chuck Noll took advantage if it. That was years ago. No team is built for a low scoring offense and great defense anymore. at least not the teams that win super bowls.

[Northern_Blitz]

I think that offensive coaches are the current flavor of the month.

Recent good hire that's a defensive guy: Vrabel.

Best coach of the modern era (and of all time): Billy B.

[Bawb the Revelator]

So you agree that a good offensive coach is better suited for success in today's NFL? The rules as they say are the rules. When the NFL went to call more pass interference / you can't much receivers Chuck Noll took advantage if it. That was years ago. No team is built for a low scoring offense and great defense anymore. at least not the teams that win super bowls.

A serious question, Joel:
Granted the rules and deck are stacked but does that mean for every game - especially in the playoffs?

I'd think a good ground game eats time off the clock and the Defense that plays least plays best. It's NOT perfect or Hoops and you'll lose most of the time. OTOH, in January and sudden death, things happen.

I honestly do not know the answer or if one even exists. :D

[Northern_Blitz]

If the rules make it so that offense is easy and defense is hard...wouldn't you kind of want someone that is good at the hard thing?

[Bawb the Revelator]

If the rules make it so that offense is easy and defense is hard...wouldn't you kind of want someone that is good at the hard thing?

That's my thinking. I'm no Joel B. or an O.C. OTOH with Najee and what the Steelers have at QB i'd bulk up the D; sign and play the ground game, then make the playoffs. Win ugly and boring. :D

[Joel Buchsbaum]

A serious question, Joel:
Granted the rules and deck are stacked but does that mean for every game - especially in the playoffs?

I'd think a good ground game eats time off the clock and the Defense that plays least plays best. It's NOT perfect or Hoops and you'll lose most of the time. OTOH, in January and sudden death, things happen.

I honestly do not know the answer or if one even exists. :D

Yes, when you have the lead a good ground game is used to run time off the clock. It works, and that offense.


I have not seen new head coach that is a very talented defensive coach in a while. I think the next evaluation for defense is a DB/LB who job is to stick with running quarterbacks and prevent him from running. And deliver hard tackles when the QB does run. Used to limit/ stop the very mobile type of QB's. This players drops into short zone during passing plays, and watches when the QB crosses the line of scrimmage. Also this player guards the running QB on RPO's. Once the ball is handed off to a running back, he switches assignment and tries to tackle him. This player isn't used like this or 3rd and 10+. Then let the QB try and run. On such plays a regular dime will do. Something of a spy type of defender, who good at covering in short zone.


This would be a new defensive scheme that isn't in football the way it can be now, but the need for it I think is there.

Someone mentioned Vrabel. Yeah he's a good head coach. Organized and very into the game...but he's not among the best head coaches and I haven't seen do anything that stand outs on defense.

[NorthCoast]

Let see what the numbers tell us. The following table is based on season ranks for pts scored vs pts allowed for all SB winners.
These are the number of appearances for every SB winner since 1966 vs the last 15 yrs:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52229147361_0c6367d143.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nzj2SH)Capture (https://flic.kr/p/2nzj2SH) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr

What's it all mean? Looks to be a definite shift to offenses as SB winners. But the footnote is that it takes a combined good offense and defense to be the champion.

Footnote #2; the Steelers won the SB in 2008 with the 20th ranked offense and #1 defense, the very next year the Saints won with the 20th ranked defense and the #1 offense

[Chucktownsteeler]

The key is balance, health, and getting hot at the right time. In a single game play-off "win or go home" structure, the best team doesn't always win.

Balance.

[whisper]

Yes, when you have the lead a good ground game is used to run time off the clock. It works, and that offense.


I have not seen new head coach that is a very talented defensive coach in a while. I think the next evaluation for defense is a DB/LB who job is to stick with running quarterbacks and prevent him from running. And deliver hard tackles when the QB does run. Used to limit/ stop the very mobile type of QB's. This players drops into short zone during passing plays, and watches when the QB crosses the line of scrimmage. Also this player guards the running QB on RPO's. Once the ball is handed off to a running back, he switches assignment and tries to tackle him. This player isn't used like this or 3rd and 10+. Then let the QB try and run. On such plays a regular dime will do. Something of a spy type of defender, who good at covering in short zone.


This would be a new defensive scheme that isn't in football the way it can be now, but the need for it I think is there.

Someone mentioned Vrabel. Yeah he's a good head coach. Organized and very into the game...but he's not among the best head coaches and I haven't seen do anything that stand outs on defense.

What about Sean McDermot? Hoodie is the best ever coach. And Vrabel had his team with the #1 seed in the AFC before being upset by Cinci. And that's with garbage at QB.

[Northern_Blitz]

Let see what the numbers tell us. The following table is based on season ranks for pts scored vs pts allowed for all SB winners.
These are the number of appearances for every SB winner since 1966 vs the last 15 yrs:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52229147361_0c6367d143.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nzj2SH)Capture (https://flic.kr/p/2nzj2SH) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr

What's it all mean? Looks to be a definite shift to offenses as SB winners. But the footnote is that it takes a combined good offense and defense to be the champion.

Footnote #2; the Steelers won the SB in 2008 with the 20th ranked offense and #1 defense, the very next year the Saints won with the 20th ranked defense and the #1 offense

I know on the Terrible Podcast, Dave talks about something like differential of average completed air yards (offense - defense) and there's some threshold he talks about being somewhat predictive of the best teams in the league.

I also wonder if the new offensive rules favor trying to optimize for turnovers on D instead of optimizing for giving up fewer yards. Maybe that skews these stats? Do you know if "top 10" here is by yards or points? Maybe it doesn't matter and the trend is there either way?

Lemming won't like this, but I think it's probably better to look at something like top 4 or top 8 teams vs. SB winner. Because the single game elimination tournament isn't great at determining who's "best".

[Northern_Blitz]

The key is balance, health, and getting hot at the right time. In a single game play-off "win or go home" structure, the best team doesn't always win.

Balance.

This...you want to be good on both sides of the ball.

I think that to win the single elimination tournament the "weaker" side of your team to win you at least one game.

[Joel Buchsbaum]

Let see what the numbers tell us. The following table is based on season ranks for pts scored vs pts allowed for all SB winners.
These are the number of appearances for every SB winner since 1966 vs the last 15 yrs:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52229147361_0c6367d143.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nzj2SH)Capture (https://flic.kr/p/2nzj2SH) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr

What's it all mean? Looks to be a definite shift to offenses as SB winners. But the footnote is that it takes a combined good offense and defense to be the champion.

Footnote #2; the Steelers won the SB in 2008 with the 20th ranked offense and #1 defense, the very next year the Saints won with the 20th ranked defense and the #1 offense


Good data. I'd argue that the game has become even more offensive in the past 10 years. 2008 was a long time ago. You're right there has been a definite shift to offense in especially in the last 10 years. Can we see a chart that ends with 10 years of history? But we have Tomlin a defensive coach who doesn't know Jack about the offense and he hired Canada to run our offense which if you ask around was a questionable and cheap hire.

[Joel Buchsbaum]

What about Sean McDermot? Hoodie is the best ever coach. And Vrabel had his team with the #1 seed in the AFC before being upset by Cinci. And that's with garbage at QB.


Hoodie is a football genius and one who also cheats by being very deceptive and smart. He's unique but there is not doubting him as a coach. He prepares as well as anyone, but spyware and defat gate are know within his team, and other have included wire signal stealing with video. Wire tapping? What don't we know? That is fair to say.

Vrabel isn't in that class and plays a style that demands few turnovers....because of his offense.

[NorthCoast]

I know on the Terrible Podcast, Dave talks about something like differential of average completed air yards (offense - defense) and there's some threshold he talks about being somewhat predictive of the best teams in the league.

I also wonder if the new offensive rules favor trying to optimize for turnovers on D instead of optimizing for giving up fewer yards. Maybe that skews these stats? Do you know if "top 10" here is by yards or points? Maybe it doesn't matter and the trend is there either way?

Lemming won't like this, but I think it's probably better to look at something like top 4 or top 8 teams vs. SB winner. Because the single game elimination tournament isn't great at determining who's "best".The rankings are based on pts scored vs pts allowed. In the last 15 yrs a team with both top 10 defense and top 10 offense was a SB winner 2 out of 3 times. A top 10 defense is a SB winner 2 out of 3 times while a top 10 offense is a SB winner 4 out of 5 times.

It might be interesting (but doubles the work) to see how things change when considering team SB appearances rather than just the winners.

[NorthCoast]

Good data. I'd argue that the game has become even more offensive in the past 10 years. 2008 was a long time ago. You're right there has been a definite shift to offense in especially in the last 10 years. Can we see a chart that ends with 10 years of history? But we have Tomlin a defensive coach who doesn't know Jack about the offense and he hired Canada to run our offense which if you ask around was a questionable and cheap hire.I considered a 10 yr interval but datasets get pretty small to make good trending judgments. Interesting enough the top defense won the SB twice while the top offense was never a winner.

Something a little more interesting. Combined the offense and defensive ranks (simple avg) for the SB winners there's a clear trend of lower ranked teams making it to the SB. In fact the years between 2006 and 2011 most of the SB winners had either, or both, offense and defense ranked outside the top 10:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52229680754_7afb042cbb.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nzmLr9)Capture (https://flic.kr/p/2nzmLr9) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr

[Chucktownsteeler]

Hoodie is a football genius and one who also cheats by being very deceptive and smart. He's unique but there is not doubting him as a coach. He prepares as well as anyone, but spyware and defat gate are know within his team, and other have included wire signal stealing with video. Wire tapping? What don't we know? That is fair to say.

Vrabel isn't in that class and plays a style that demands few turnovers....because of his offense.

A big part of his success was Ernie Adams. Ernie is gone a hoodie hasn't done much since.

[NorthCoast]

I considered a 10 yr interval but datasets get pretty small to make good trending judgments. Interesting enough the top defense won the SB twice while the top offense was never a winner.

Something a little more interesting. Combined the offense and defensive ranks (simple avg) for the SB winners there's a clear trend of lower ranked teams making it to the SB. In fact the years between 2006 and 2011 most of the SB winners had either, or both, offense and defense ranked outside the top 10:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52229680754_7afb042cbb.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nzmLr9)Capture (https://flic.kr/p/2nzmLr9) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr

The other thing about a 10 yr interval is the one team, one QB and the GOAT coach are overly represented in that time (40% of SB winners).

[Northern_Blitz]

The rankings are based on pts scored vs pts allowed. In the last 15 yrs a team with both top 10 defense and top 10 offense was a SB winner 2 out of 3 times. A top 10 defense is a SB winner 2 out of 3 times while a top 10 offense is a SB winner 4 out of 5 times.

It might be interesting (but doubles the work) to see how things change when considering team SB appearances rather than just the winners.

I think it makes sense to use points.

I agree that it doubles (ideally quadruples or more) the work, but it would give a better picture. I'm not asking you to do the work (didn't realize that these were your graphs), but only looking at SB winner maybe is misleading...although the changes in the chart you posted do seem to be significant.

I agree with Joel that it might also be interesting to see a shorter timeframe. But it might just be dominated by the Pats...who were typically a well balanced team.

[Northern_Blitz]

I considered a 10 yr interval but datasets get pretty small to make good trending judgments. Interesting enough the top defense won the SB twice while the top offense was never a winner.

Something a little more interesting. Combined the offense and defensive ranks (simple avg) for the SB winners there's a clear trend of lower ranked teams making it to the SB. In fact the years between 2006 and 2011 most of the SB winners had either, or both, offense and defense ranked outside the top 10:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52229680754_7afb042cbb.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nzmLr9)Capture (https://flic.kr/p/2nzmLr9) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr



This is interesting. Thanks for posting it.

I think it says that over time, the line between winning and losing is being blurred.

Or probably just that it's really hard to be great on both offense and defense at the same time in a cap world?

And that you can win the SB with a team that isn't even all that great (average ranking > 10). Again...not asking you to do this, but I wonder if taking the average(average(O+D)) of all playoff teams (ex-3rd WC spots) has changed over time? My guess is that the line for making the playoffs is more stable.

Or because it's less work, the same value for the teams in the AFCC and NFCC.

I bet there would be less variation in those numbers because it's not just winner take all in single-elim. But...it's again 4x more work.

Also...The cap came in in 1994 (?). And from then on, there seems to be a reasonable trend up. And signifantly more OK teams (only 1 10+ before in 34 years, but 8 in the 27 years since).

I'd imagine that those very low squares in the 90s are the Cowboys. And it's really hard to be that good on both side of the ball now.

I guess this chart supports the Steelers mantra of "just get into the tournament and you never know what happens". If you can average 10th best in the league between offense and defense, you have a reasonable shot of winning (especially if your elite players stay healthy...which is probably one of the most important factors in the NFL).

[Northern_Blitz]

I think there is some truth to this. Quick name me the best head coaches hired. They mostly offensive guys. Another reason the part ways with the haven't won a playoff game in six years Mike Tomlin. With an offensive type of coach, you really don't lose the OC. It matters less who he is. Example Andy Reid, and Sean Mcvey. Even Matt Lafleur. Furthermore defensive coaches really do not hire good OC's. These days a good offense beats a good defense.

Thoughts?

Another point here...I'm imagining that QB quality (and maybe cap value is even more important) is far more predictive of winning the SB than offensive-vs-defensive minded HC.

Again, the signal here is maybe not accurate because recent SBs are dominated by Brady (which is likely both quality and value).

But the guys that aren't Brady that won are quite often guys on rookie deals*. Suggesting value is really important.

[crushedspirit]

The last 6 SB finals have been filled with 12 top 10 scoring teams, so the shift to offense is obvious. Out of those 12 teams, 4 of them finished out of the top 10 for points against.

An offense that scores puts the D in a better position, as it's always easier when up. There are 13 current coaches from the Reid or McVay/Shanahan coaching tree, and teams are rushing to find the next great offensive mind. Vrabel was the best chance in the current era for 3 yards and a cloud of dust, but once teams shut down the best back in the league, we all got to see the limitations of that offense.

[NorthCoast]

The last 6 SB finals have been filled with 12 top 10 scoring teams, so the shift to offense is obvious. Out of those 12 teams, 4 of them finished out of the top 10 for points against.

An offense that scores puts the D in a better position, as it's always easier when up. There are 13 current coaches from the Reid or McVay/Shanahan coaching tree, and teams are rushing to find the next great offensive mind. Vrabel was the best chance in the current era for 3 yards and a cloud of dust, but once teams shut down the best back in the league, we all got to see the limitations of that offense.

Again, the GOAT QB skews that view. He is represented in 4 of those 12 teams. I think a 15 yr look would be better.

[Northern_Blitz]

The last 6 SB finals have been filled with 12 top 10 scoring teams, so the shift to offense is obvious. Out of those 12 teams, 4 of them finished out of the top 10 for points against.

An offense that scores puts the D in a better position, as it's always easier when up. There are 13 current coaches from the Reid or McVay/Shanahan coaching tree, and teams are rushing to find the next great offensive mind. Vrabel was the best chance in the current era for 3 yards and a cloud of dust, but once teams shut down the best back in the league, we all got to see the limitations of that offense.

Thanks for running that down:

- 12/12 were top 10 offense and
- 8/12 were top 10 defense?

[NorthCoast]

Some further numbers in the last 15 Superbowls (ranks based on pts scored and pts allowed):


Last 15 yrs


Avg Combined Off+Def Rank of SB Winners = 8.4
Avg Combined Off+Def Rank of SB Losers = 8.1
Top 5 Offense appeared in 53% of SB
Top 5 Defense appeared in 37% of SB


Bottomline; most SB teams are damn good on one side of the ball and the winners are often good on both:


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52229813701_0054baafbe.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nznrXk)Capture (https://flic.kr/p/2nznrXk) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr

[crushedspirit]

Again, the GOAT QB skews that view. He is represented in 4 of those 12 teams. I think a 15 yr look would be better.

What current trends show is that offenses are taking over. I like to look at things since the Shanahan tree branched out into Kyle and McVay starting 2017. Those two took the Mike Shanahan outside zone scheme, and made it into something many around the league are trying to copy, or getting one of their assistants. If you take the GOAT out of the last 6 years, the trend would still be what it is.

I do enjoy your 15 yr numbers.

[Northern_Blitz]

Some further numbers in the last 15 Superbowls (ranks based on pts scored and pts allowed):


Last 15 yrs


Avg Combined Off+Def Rank of SB Winners = 8.4
Avg Combined Off+Def Rank of SB Losers = 8.1
Top 5 Offense appeared in 53% of SB
Top 5 Defense appeared in 37% of SB


Bottomline; most SB teams are damn good on one side of the ball and the winners are often good on both:


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52229813701_0054baafbe.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nznrXk)Capture (https://flic.kr/p/2nznrXk) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr


My favorite one on this graph is 2009 :tt2

[Northern_Blitz]

Some further numbers in the last 15 Superbowls (ranks based on pts scored and pts allowed):


Last 15 yrs


Avg Combined Off+Def Rank of SB Winners = 8.4
Avg Combined Off+Def Rank of SB Losers = 8.1
Top 5 Offense appeared in 53% of SB
Top 5 Defense appeared in 37% of SB


Bottomline; most SB teams are damn good on one side of the ball and the winners are often good on both:


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52229813701_0054baafbe.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nznrXk)Capture (https://flic.kr/p/2nznrXk) by R W (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191750946@N04/), on Flickr

I don't know if last season is representative, but the difference between being 5th and 10th best in offense and defensive scoring is:

Offense: 5th 27.9 ppg vs. 26.5 ppg: Difference is 1.4 ppg. Difference from 1st to 32nd best to worst is: 16.3 ppg
Defense: 5th 20.8 ppg, 21.5 ppg. Difference is 0.7 ppg. Difference from 1st to 32nd best to worst is: 12.6 ppg

So maybe it's just that the spread between teams in offensive ppg is bigger than the spread in defensive ppg?

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

I agree that the league is definitely moving towards emphasizing the offensive side of the ball, and that a creative offensive mind is very valuable. However, I do not agree that a HC who comes from the offensive or defensive side of the ball has a huge influence on that. The skillset required to be a great OC is completely different than that required to be a coordinator or assistant coach. A good HC finds the best coordinators and lets them do their jobs while he focuses on the big picture.

[Joel Buchsbaum]

The last 6 SB finals have been filled with 12 top 10 scoring teams, so the shift to offense is obvious. Out of those 12 teams, 4 of them finished out of the top 10 for points against.

An offense that scores puts the D in a better position, as it's always easier when up. There are 13 current coaches from the Reid or McVay/Shanahan coaching tree, and teams are rushing to find the next great offensive mind. Vrabel was the best chance in the current era for 3 yards and a cloud of dust, but once teams shut down the best back in the league, we all got to see the limitations of that offense.

A thumbs up button is needed. Yes-- football today is mostly about offenses thinking.

[crushedspirit]

I agree that the league is definitely moving towards emphasizing the offensive side of the ball, and that a creative offensive mind is very valuable. However, I do not agree that a HC who comes from the offensive or defensive side of the ball has a huge influence on that. The skillset required to be a great OC is completely different than that required to be a coordinator or assistant coach. A good HC finds the best coordinators and lets them do their jobs while he focuses on the big picture.

Guys like McVay, Shanahan, and Reid definitely have a huge hand in the offensive makeup of their teams. Their OC's learn from them, not the other way around. I do agree though that there are some coaches who are not good with that approach, and need help with a strong OC.

[whisper]

Guys like McVay, Shanahan, and Reid definitely have a huge hand in the offensive makeup of their teams. Their OC's learn from them, not the other way around. I do agree though that there are some coaches who are not good with that approach, and need help with a strong OC.

I think you're looking at one of those teams, here. Shades ain't the swiftest O coach in the world.

[crushedspirit]

I think you're looking at one of those teams, here. Shades ain't the swiftest O coach in the world.

He is one of them, and it can't be argued. You don't see the league clamoring for any of his assistants, because there really is no innovation on that side of the ball that other franchises want a piece of.

[feltdizz]

What’s funny is McVay and Shanahan are using the jet sweep motion offense that Canada ran a ton at Pitt and Maryland.

[Joel Buchsbaum]

What’s funny is McVay and Shanahan are using the jet sweep motion offense that Canada ran a ton at Pitt and Maryland.

Yeah and they run with better players. Us, we use Ray Ray multiple times in the play. That's part of the problem with Canada.

[whisper]

What’s funny is McVay and Shanahan are using the jet sweep motion offense that Canada ran a ton at Pitt and Maryland.

So why didn't he run it (successfully) with the Steelers?

[Joel Buchsbaum]

I think you're looking at one of those teams, here. Shades ain't the swiftest O coach in the world.

Nor has he hired any good OC's. Double whammy. Not sharp in X's and O's and doesn't hire guys well. Tomlin, Mike Tomlin.

[crushedspirit]

This article explains why McVay and Shanahan are ahead of the game. They took the wide zone approach they learned from Mike Shanahan, and went to new levels with it. And when it appeared the league caught up in 2019 with heavy fronts and two-deep safeties, these two coaches had answers, and adjusted appropriately. There is zero doubt in my mind that if Shanahan can find himself a better QB than what he's been saddled with Mr Eyebrows, he will be in the SB on a more regular basis than McVay.


https://www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2022/1/26/22902126/kyle-shanahan-sean-mcvay-five-years-evolution#:~:text=McVay's%20offense%20was%20built% 20on,than%20the%20next%20closest%20team.

[NorthCoast]

I think you're looking at one of those teams, here. Shades ain't the swiftest O coach in the world.

There's no shame in recognizing your weaknesses and hiring someone who can fill that role. Is anyone clamoring to copy MCVay's defense? Or even talking about it?

[NorthCoast]

Nor has he hired any good OC's. Double whammy. Not sharp in X's and O's and doesn't hire guys well. Tomlin, Mike Tomlin.

I disagree. Haley was a good OC. He changed Roethlisberger's game and they were top 10 in scoring during his time. Wasn't Tomlin's fault the OC and QB couldn't get along.

[crushedspirit]

They want to pluck from McVay's offensive mindset, and why not. I don't see anyone clamoring for Tomlin's defensive coaches as well. There's a reason for this, and it's simple.

[NorthCoast]

They want to pluck from McVay's offensive mindset, and why not. I don't see anyone clamoring for Tomlin's defensive coaches as well. There's a reason for this, and it's simple.

Because they were old and retired?

[crushedspirit]

Because they were old and retired?

I'm talking any of his coaches, not just assistants

[Northern_Blitz]

They want to pluck from McVay's offensive mindset, and why not. I don't see anyone clamoring for Tomlin's defensive coaches as well. There's a reason for this, and it's simple.

I think it's got a lot to do with the fact that the DC's we hired are old. Was someone really going to hire LeBeau as a HC again after (1) he already failed as a HC and (2) he was 77 when he stopped being our DC.

[crushedspirit]

Again, it's not just assistants teams go after. As an example, Zac Taylor was not an assistant before landing a HC position. Franchises see innovation, and they want a piece of it.

What defensive scheme has Tomlin orchestrated that others want? Even though the Hoodie's coaching tree has been a failure, it's the Defensive game planning teams wanted a piece of, and almost all his tree hires were from that side of the ball. Teams know the GOAT had more to do with offensive success than the Hoodie did.

[NorthCoast]

Again, it's not just assistants teams go after. As an example, Zac Taylor was not an assistant before landing a HC position. Franchises see innovation, and they want a piece of it.

What defensive scheme has Tomlin orchestrated that others want? Even though the Hoodie's coaching tree has been a failure, it's the Defensive game planning teams wanted a piece of, and almost all his tree hires were from that side of the ball. Teams know the GOAT had more to do with offensive success than the Hoodie did.

Can you name any innovative defensive minded coach? Just maybe there is nothing special about Tomlin's defensive scheme. Just good coaching with strong talent. Although I could argue Tomlin was one of the early coaches looking for the hybrid safety/LB.
You have to admit most seasons we are worried about the offense, not the defense.

[crushedspirit]

I'll even downgrade things. How many of Tomlin's coaches have gone on to being hired as current OC or DC elsewhere?

Just as an example, 17 current OCs, and 21 current DCs were hired from other franchises. Out of those, 13 of them were either previous coordinators or head coaches. The other 25 came from various coaching positions. Out of all those, guess how many came from this franchise?

[crushedspirit]

Can you name any innovative defensive minded coach? Just maybe there is nothing special about Tomlin's defensive scheme. Just good coaching with strong talent. Although I could argue Tomlin was one of the early coaches looking for the hybrid safety/LB.
You have to admit most seasons we are worried about the offense, not the defense.

I already mention The Hoodie. He's the most current innovator with his knack of eliminating the other team's strongest player, but even that strategy seems like it's heading for the archives. The other guy I've always been high on as an innovator is Dennis Allen, who remains the only defensive mind out there that embarrassed the GOAT more than once. Look at how many streaks his D has put up without allowing 100 yard rushers.

[Northern_Blitz]

I already mention The Hoodie. He's the most current innovator with his knack of eliminating the other team's strongest player, but even that strategy seems like it's heading for the archives. The other guy I've always been high on as an innovator is Dennis Allen, who remains the only defensive mind out there that embarrassed the GOAT more than once. Look at how many streaks his D has put up without allowing 100 yard rushers.

And his "coaching tree" mostly wasn't good, right?

Maybe you don't really learn much coaching by osmosis anymore?

Edited to add: I think we should be more active looking for coordinators from outside than we are.

[whisper]

I'll even downgrade things. How many of Tomlin's coaches have gone on to being hired as current OC or DC elsewhere?

Just as an example, 17 current OCs, and 21 current DCs were hired from other franchises. Out of those, 13 of them were either previous coordinators or head coaches. The other 25 came from various coaching positions. Out of all those, guess how many came from this franchise?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkCa49I6_xw

[crushedspirit]

And his "coaching tree" mostly wasn't good, right?

Maybe you don't really learn much coaching by osmosis anymore?

Edited to add: I think we should be more active looking for coordinators from outside than we are.

I mentioned that already, but yet teams kept trying over the years. I personally think it has more to do with The Hoodie's rigid style and personality that can't be transferred elsewhere. Plus, he always seems to look for any "grey" area advantages others can't duplicate, if you know what I mean.

I would still give the nod to Allen overall. That's the current guy I would want to pluck info from defensively. Ask the GOAT what he thinks about Allen, LOL.

[Northern_Blitz]

I mentioned that already, but yet teams kept trying over the years. I personally think it has more to do with The Hoodie's rigid style and personality that can't be transferred elsewhere. Plus, he always seems to look for any "grey" area advantages others can't duplicate, if you know what I mean.

I would still give the nod to Allen overall. That's the current guy I would want to pluck info from defensively. Ask the GOAT what he thinks about Allen, LOL.

I think most teams are not good at hiring coaches.*

The Rooney's method of hiring you defensive minded guys and surrounding them with older coordinators seems to have worked pretty well.

* I think a big part of this is that a lot of team are actually not good at roster construction (which I think is more important than coach selection). I think too many teams try a win now approach vs. trying to be consistently competitive. I think the win now approach usually (i) doesn't lead to a championship - like most methods - and (ii) torches the medium to long term health of your team. I think being consistently competitive also doesn't usually result in championships...but you have the benefit of having more "at bats". But it's certainly possible that I'm biased toward this strategy because the Steelers use it and have been successful.

Edited to add: note that I also think that BB's best skill might be roster construction.

[NJ-STEELER]

I disagree. Haley was a good OC. He changed Roethlisberger's game and they were top 10 in scoring during his time. Wasn't Tomlin's fault the OC and QB couldn't get along.

AB was seen on the sidelines throwing a tantrum because of Haley.

blount walked off the team ( if my timeline is correct) over not being used enuff

was there any player on the team that got along with Haley??

or just your typical let’s blame ben for everything that goes wrong

[NJ-STEELER]

I'll even downgrade things. How many of Tomlin's coaches have gone on to being hired as current OC or DC elsewhere?

Just as an example, 17 current OCs, and 21 current DCs were hired from other franchises. Out of those, 13 of them were either previous coordinators or head coaches. The other 25 came from various coaching positions. Out of all those, guess how many came from this franchise?

solid work

and after the OL coach disaster last year.
maybe they need to change the way they hire assistant coaches

[NorthCoast]

AB was seen on the sidelines throwing a tantrum because of Haley.

blount walked off the team ( if my timeline is correct) over not being used enuff

was there any player on the team that got along with Haley??

or just your typical let’s blame ben for everything that goes wrong

AB threw tantrums because of the QB as well.
Where exactly was the 'blame Ben' in my post? You really read some stuff that isn't there.
The OC and QB didn't get along. Blame both sides for not making it work.